Great to hear! Good work and God bless this ministry!!

I just receive my DVD.
There is not possible to don't understand witch path to follow in this life!

God bless all the team from Amazing Facts and the speaker Doug

Are we were not suppose to make movies and not to represent the Gospel through drama? This is not good what you are doing, but as most of the mediums you will not post the negative comments.

Excellent!

Miles said: "Are we were not suppose to make movies and not to represent the Gospel through drama? This is not good what you are doing, but as most of the mediums you will not post the negative comments. By Miles on 9/5/2009 3:04 AM"

So, Miles.... What would you suggest?

I plan to buy this DVD because this is again spreading the great news of our Father in Heaven. The people hopefully will send to all friends, Church & family and they in turn will send to many.....The Study of History will reveal this to be true. More Media Drama makers please may there be many more that have the creativity of this to design awareness to spread his love for his children.....Amen.

I plan to buy the DVD and also get involved to learn more of the Bible through this media of IT. I will send to family and friends. I know our Father's loving hand and comfort will be with those who believe and may strength be with all of us to spread his name, drama, scene, prophecy, movie, Pastor, throughtout this troublesome evil World on Earth. God the Trinity is Love.

yo people.
tooltime sent me. i cant tell is this is a satirical, and everyones playing along, or if you are being completly serious and not purposly trying to be funny.

lol fail

it all seems so ridiculous after watching that hahaha

The problem, of course, comes from the idea that an omniscient god who saw all that Lucifer would do from the moment that this being thought of creating Lucifer yet created Lucifer anyway. Why? The only explanation is that this omniscient being who is also omnipotent wanted Lucifer to do what he saw Lucifer would do.

Hey-ho!

Tooltime put the link. Great job people! This is probably the best comedy I have ever seen. Even better than Left Behind. Through the whole movie I was just laughing hysterically. I'll recommend this to all my friends.

"Is God not good?" lol, did these people read the same Bible I did? AFK a moment to go smash some babies against rocks.

"Is God not good?" lol, did these people read the same Bible I did? AFK a moment to go smash some babies against rocks.

The storyline was great but the graphics were made as of for little children.
Sadly failed representing Gods kingdom in childisch ways.

If you watch it over and over again you will suddenly start laughing its so silly made.

P.S. The battle scenes were few and very childisch made.
This could turn out to be something very funny taken rather then serious accepted.

amazingfacts you can do better then this.

I got my copy today it was nice but the animations leave such an hunger.
I think they did so many rush things for this dvd withouth really thinking things out.

Angels walking without shoes, different kinds of angels even woman, i even saw a man with beard cuttings not really convincing appearences for angels.
Some clearly had good faces for angels but others didnt qualify.
Not to lower people who were in it but when you make movies you dont have to think on not accepting people in roles but seek for the kind of features needed to boost the confidence. The throne of Jesus was very funny drawn. This truly mocks God. As SDA people who have ellen white books they should have think things more in bigger scales.
I believe the SDA people have a mayor responsibility but sadly failed in this dvd.
I just hope people will focus on the storyline as spoken and hosted by pastor doug.

I want to sent my dvd back or I will give it back to another person.
Sad.....

Whats with all the hate? this is not a hollywood movie.

The documentary has been blessed and has a great message.

Well, in some ways I am not surprised to read some of the negative comments posted. After all there will always be mockers, take a look at Noah's day don't you think he heard some of the same things about what he was doing? I pray and believe that the Lord will bless this work to someone who is searching.
God bless all the team from Amazing Facts and the speaker Doug.

Interesting! Well I am wondering when Disk 2 in the series will come out. As for angels not having shoes arn't they not on Holy Ground?

I thought some of the actors did a great job. Lucifer looked menacing and Adam looked good as well. Well done!

Do not be discouraged,God will Bless all that is done to Honor His Name!!!

To the detractors,

Cosmic Conflict may not be as visually advanced as the films we see made in Hollywood. Pixar did not create the animated sequences. LucasArts did not provide the special effects. Steven Spielberg did not provide direction. Christopher Nolan did not produce this film.

I must admit that I too wanted a story with the deep detail that we find in the Spirit of Prophecy -- but the message was pure. The facts were Bible rooted. The work was carefully presented and the end result is a rewarding Christian spiritual experience. There was no strong character interaction as found in Best Picture winners. The Cosmic Conflict was created to the standard that the LORD directed. I have shown the film to both non Christians and non Adventists and all felt Christ's presence throughout the film and were lead nearer to Christ after it was over. That is what's important.

Swearing and cussing on a family oriented website will not improve the quality of the Cosmic Conflict, nor will it persuade others to adopting your argument.

thank you TDK. Well Said.

To those with the negative comments, I believe in the Bible, I believe in God. Missplaced or not, it's my faith, and i choose to place it in God. I will die with my faith in God, and no amount of ridicule will ever change that.

To the people at Amazing facts, I showed this video to the youth at church tonight, were were gonna watch only the first chapter, but they insisted on watching both. We had a non SDA visitor who came late, and requested information about the DVD, i gave it to him, that's 1 more person that has been touched by your minitry. I patiently wait for the next DVD in the series.

I really disappoint in you because you did not install English subtitles Because million deaf people in USA who can't hear. They depend on closed caption or subtitles.

Sorry, I can not purchase your dvd because there no English subtitles.

Disappoint in you, serious,
Chad

I can hardly believe some of the comments I've read here. They make me sad and angry at the same time. I haven't seen this movie yet, but want to soon. The main issue is education and spreading Gods news to us, not anyones opinion of the quality of the sceens. I noticed people typing "lol" in their comment; well, you've been warned of the enemy; when you spend eternity with him remember to "laugh out loud" then. Pastor Dougs message is not a joke, nor to be taken lightly. We have many choices we can make about our life while living, and none after we die, only one of the choices we make is important. Where will you spend eternity. Sadly, for some of you its obvious where you will be going. Others, I'll see you on the other side in heaven. As for Chad who wants closed caption English subtitles, I wish they had them if only for you. I hope next time they will think of this and add that feature for all of the hearing impaired who are seeking Gods word, news and warnings he has for us. Paster Doug, I think you are fantastic!!! I really enjoy listening to your messages. God has really blessed your ministry.

Just noticed as I was exiting this site that this movie does have English subtitles, as well as Spanish and French. Chad, I hope you look at this forum again and order this movie. Sorry I assumed that this feature was left out TDK. Thank you for your comment posted on 9-11-09 also,WELL SAID. I'm sure the movie is wonderful, as all other movies I have received from Pastor Dougs ministry have been. He really has a gift of explaining God's word to us believers. By the way, I'm sure some one will pick my first comment apart when they read it, I know "Heaven" is a place, and the small "h" was not intentional when typing it. Just to let you know I did notice and want to set thing right.

I look forward to seeing this movie,
Denise

After reading some of the comments inspired by the enemy in this cosmic conflict, I KNOW it is going to bring many to Jesus!!! Reading those comments just makes me want to see it even more!!!!!!! Why would people who don't believe in it bother to come to a Christian website? I believe they are searching, and I will pray for every one of them that their every thought will be brought into captivity to Christ:-)

The enemy wouldn't be fighting it so hard if it wasn't going to bring many to Jesus!!!!!!!

Yes, I agree. This is going to be a most productive DVD -- educating millions. The DVD answers the most asked question -- "Why is there evil?"

I was taken back by such negative posts (and as a high school teacher, shocked at such poor writing skills). Satan is hurt, angry, and striking blows . . . This DVD presents what Satan has always tried to cover -- God's character. Thank you Amazing Facts for helping us to explain God's character to our family and friends.

This DVD will make a wonderful gift to send with Christmas cards. Amazing Facts -- can you lower the price or make bulk quantities available for a lower price. Christmas is coming ;)

JoAnn

i wished it was longer and made in better detail.praiae the LORD THOUGH.BUT HOPEFULY NEXT TIME IT WILL BE MADE IN MORE DETAIL AND WHY IS JESUS ALWAYS PORTRAYED AS A WHITE MAN.HOW COME NEVER WHAT HE WAS ,A JEW WITH DARKSKIN. LETS BE REAL NOT LIKE HOLLYWOOD.

Just another loser trying to make money selling lies.

Just another loser trying to make money selling lies.

Why is it that you atheists visit this website just to waste your time trying to mock God? As if you know all the answers in life which really you don't. You say there is no God but you don't really know that. I can't prove God exists either, but I do know this; We humans have only left the backyard of knowing all the knowledge of the universe. There is always something beyond our existence that we don't know about.

How much percent of the knowledge in the universe do you know. 1%? 1% is not even close to what all the world's scientists know today. Everything in exsistence is bigger than we can even imagine. But let's say you atheists know atleast 5%, it's not everything but it's a lot. Know what about the rest of the 95% there is to know.

Could it be possible that God (whoever he is) could exist within that 95% that you know nothing of. I hope you get the point. Until you know everything please come back and tell us that there is no God. But until that time you are taking a bigger step of faith that most of these Christians have. I'm not a religious person, but I know what's reason and to say that it's a fact that God does not exist is a pretty retarded thing to say. I don't know who God is, could he have used evolution? Possibly, but I see the possibility that such a being could exist.

So you atheists are better of just to shut the hell up! As for you Christians, I don't know if the God you worship is the true God. But atleast there are many people, like this ministry that are looking for the answers of life, unlike some people.

God Bless you AF.

So you atheists are better

better of not wasting your time here.

Brothers and Sister our Lord gave me a message to give to all these Atheists today. A scripture from our most holy book the king james bible. Job 39:9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? Now brothers and sisters if that doesn't make sense to these Atheist and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt the existance and power of our Lord... then they are just damned to the lake of fire.

i can not wait to get my movie. I dont need a movie to believe . Jesus said that my sheeps hear my calling. with that said, if you not a servant of Jesus(Yeshua), you not call to peace noway, and will always believe in star wars,because you are blind to the truth. continue believing in the Lord Yeshua (Jesus).Amen and to all the Amen!

About the unicorn, the same Hebrew word used as unicorn is the same as buffalo. The Hebrews had the same words to describe different things. But Hebrews could understand what they were depending on the context. In the spanish Bible "Version Reaina Valera" the word in that passage is also buffalo.

Hello fellow christians I am having a problem. I used to be extremely spirit filled God spoke to me all the time. I was recently had some depression issues due to satan and his attacks and the doctors put me on an anti psychotic called zyprexa. From the day I started taking it I can no longer hear the Lord speaking to me, I pray and pray, cry out his name...but no answer what is wrong. Why can't I hear Jesus anymore?

your doctor is Jesus. Praise the lord ,his praises will alway be in my voice.all our prayers of with you.first kept carrying your cross, in your weakness he is strong.his grace is enought for all believer.evil spirit attack all of us who believe in Jesus(yeshua).follow and ask to be humble in your faith and let the holy spirit led you and not your carnel mind.learn to pray in tongue the spirit only Jesus can hear,and not satan.god please you and all the saint of Yeshua(Jesus).

In all the negative comments, we hear the wrath of Satan because he knows he has but a short (very short!) time left. Thank you Amazing Facts for the wonderful message of salvation to a lost and dying world. Praise God!

Praise the Lord I have a scripture for all you satan inspired heathens. 2 Kings 18:27 (King James Version) But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you? Now repent you filthy sinners or burn the in firey hell of satan's kingdom!

I think this is a wonderful creation. And I have a question I'd seriously like all of the detractors of the Faith. If all of God's work is just a fable to you, then please, you explain to me: If you know it all, what is the answer? And where do you think we come from?
Not to challenge you, but we who believe, do know the answers. It's a very, very special gift from God, and if you'd shut down your arrogance and confusion, and ask to know Him, you could know the answers too.

It is sad to know that people are getting upset because their visual cravings and imagination is profoundly influenced with what their flesh desires and this was not satisfied after they saw the presentation in this film. I think this film is not being made and created to get honor and merits from OSCARS OR BAFTA, NEITHER CANNES FESTIVAL. It is all about JESUS who lived his life in planet earth very humbly and full of humility and compassion. He tasted the worse situation that a human being can experienced, He felt our sorrow , griefs and pain. It is a film full of simplicity that even a child will understand the message. It is not being produced full of twist and turns and make ones mind wonder around what is the story all about. It is the greatest story of all time, it is God's protrayal and expression of his love, no matter who you are, what sinned you have done. God had wiped those off and cleansed you from the righteous blood of His son Jesus Christ. That the conflict had been finished from the cross and the devil once and for all defeated and crushed to the ground. It is the film about you and me and our eternal salvation which is freely given through the love of God. My prayer is, God if you will please open the hearts of people who hear and see your message may it be their first time or not to turn their eyes upon Jesus and longed for Him day by day. Please Lord give us strength in our faith so that we will see you face to face in that ressurection morning which we are all been waiting for. Please Lord let your holy Spirit touch also those who dont believe right now but the still saw this film that the seed that the have in their hearts will germenate and grow and will lead them to know Jesus more. This I asked in Jesus name.....Amen

It is sad to know that people are getting upset because their visual cravings and imagination is profoundly influenced with what their flesh desires and this was not satisfied after they saw the presentation in this film. I think this film is not being made and created to get honor and merits from OSCARS OR BAFTA, NEITHER CANNES FESTIVAL. It is all about JESUS who lived His life in planet earth very humbly and full of humility and compassion. He tasted the worse situation that a human being can experienced, He felt our sorrow , griefs and pain. It is a film full of simplicity that even a child will understand the message. It is not being produced full of twist and turns and make ones mind wonder around what is the story all about. It is the greatest story of all time, it is God's protrayal and expression of his love, no matter who you are, what sinned you have done. God had wiped those off and cleansed you from the righteous blood of His son Jesus Christ. That the conflict had been finished from the cross and the devil once and for all defeated and crushed to the ground. It is the film about you and me and our eternal salvation which is freely given through the love of God. My prayer is, God if you will please open the hearts of people who hear and see your message may it be their first time or not to turn their eyes upon Jesus and longed for Him day by day. Please Lord give us strength in our faith so that we will see you face to face in that ressurection morning which we are all been waiting for. Please Lord let your holy Spirit touch also those who dont believe right now but they still saw this film that the seed that they have in their hearts will germenate and grow and will lead them to know Jesus more. This I asked in Jesus name.....Amen

Hi. My name is Sarah I am a firm believer in Jesus, I have been going to the local baptist church all my life. Recently the head pastor pulled me aside and asked me if I knew how to blow joshua's trumphet, and if i wanted to ride on jonah's whale. Im not sure what hes talking about but I think he wants to take the youth group to Israel cause he asked me if he could swim in the river jordan. Can anyone tell me what scriptures he is talking about?

Sarah,

I don't know what your pastor is talking about. But if he is talking about going to a trip in Israel then go for it! I will be going to Turkey this coming April to see where the ancient sites were like the 7 churches and the Hittite ruins and other major cities. I'm sure if you could go to the Holy Land it would be a cool experience to walk where Jesus walked. I'm sure that you true sincere Christians would never forget an experience like that. Though I do hear that the Jordan river is kind of mucky with black water (nothing like the Nile river).

hey sarah,
The most important thing you shouldnt forget is to know jesus.

John 17:3 i believe.
if you have bible questions email them at knowthetruth@live.nl
God bless

"Holiness, Holiness is what I long for" Righteousness, Righteousness is what I need"! From everlasting to everlasting thou art GOD!! Life is short and the span of time for which each man is granted to enjoy a cool summer breeze while watching the sun set over the horizon should be cherished. Whether you be atheist, christian, Muslim, or Hindu priest we all are searching for someone to love and for someone to love us. That is the basis of christian faith and the yearning of all other religions (including the atheist). May each and everyone one of you find that everlasting love that satisfies and renews,that inspires and encourages, that understands and forgives. May the peace that surpasses understanding be with you now and forever more, Amen. There is a reason for this movie and this universe. Let me know when you find it!!

"Holiness, Holiness is what I long for" Righteousness, Righteousness is what I need"! From everlasting to everlasting thou art GOD!! Life is short and the span of time for which each man is granted to enjoy a cool summer breeze while watching the sun set over the horizon should be cherished. Whether you be atheist, christian, Muslim, or Hindu priest we all are searching for someone to love and for someone to love us. That is the basis of christian faith and the yearning of all other religions (including the atheist). May each and everyone one of you find that everlasting love that satisfies and renews,that inspires and encourages, that understands and forgives. May the peace that surpasses understanding be with you now and forever more, Amen. There is a reason for this movie and this universe. Let me know when you find it!!

It seems to me,we have more of the world in the churches than it is in the world." So called christian People"are more interested in comedies and graphics than the Word of GOD.Amazing Facts you're work are blessing others and I beleive that's what you are call to do.May you continue to run the race and fight the good fight untill the end,when satan,sin,sinners and mockers will have their proper place where GOD has prepared for the devil and his angels.May the LORD continue to bless this ministry.

I love the message and how clearly it is presented.

I do think that the graphics, effects editing are way below standards.
I am a firm believer that one must give the best for Christ.
Without going much farther, the post processing effects look as if they were done by amateurs. It need not be Pixar, Disney or Hollywood at all. Any teenager with a copy of After Effects and a decent computer could do better. I say this in love and with honesty and no hate is intended.

Also, why charge for something if it is meant to announce God's message?
If this movie was meant for the Christian, he already knows and understands the content. If it was meant for the agnostic or atheist, they will simply laugh at the poor graphics and imitation of the movie "300". If it was meant for the poor, they will not buy it... Who did the demographics, Barney the Dinosaur?

I love Pastor Doug, but having him as first person narrator in the movie takes away from the immersion.

Just my opinion..

Peace to all and God Bless You for creating this film, as I am sure it WILL reach souls that didn't know Christ and it WILL be of much blessing... even though it COULD have been MUCH much better.

Dan Bolivar

Hey dan bolivar your right,
the movie could have been done better with the amount of money they received
I heared they received in funds nearly 1 million dollar for the project.
I do wonder if they spent it all on this? Or if they spent a bit of it? Or that they didnt spent it good and in the right places?
I do believe as SDA we must give the best we can in potraying and I believe we can do better then this. If we are to reach a highleveled captivation group of people we must.
Perhaps one day one group of people will make a bigger production then this.
Not to sadden the amazingfacts team but they can do much better i have no doubt
in this.
Still the project is a blessing to all who see it, cause wether a person believes or not believes after theyve watched it, heavens books are written as testimony that they did watch it.
I hope much cash flows to amazingfacts so they can start on the second disk.

I've waited for over a year for this dvd. But is here. Finally! I bought it, I saw it, and just as you promised to be, its a blessing. Thank you Amazing Facts. Thank you Pastor Batchelor. The message was clear and powerful, the images were fantastic. I can't wait to show it to my whole congregation, and to my youth group too. I can't wait to share it with my family down in Mexico, and with all the people i study the Bible with. I recently watched a dvd movie about the end of the world, the name was 2012 something, (I don't remember the original title) even though the film was well done,
the message however was confusing and deceiptive. They mixed misquoted bible texts with legendary Mayan prophecies and Christian symbols. They portreyed the secret rapture with humans being able to stop the end of the world.
It was a very confusing and sad moment. That's why these works like the Cosmic Conflict dvd series are simple and pure Bible-based truths. Thank you again for this wonderful tool to be share with those who don't know the truth but are searching to find it. To God be the glory always. Let us keep praying and supporting amazing facts.

THIS IS THE BEST MOVIE IN THE WORLD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stevens and Bolivar,

Do you think Lord God is please with your comments?

Why not volunteer your services if you have a problem with the video quality?

Will all the true believers please stand up,
All this talk whats what and whos who is really sad, we are saints of the most high and our only goal should be to witness and to testify of the truth of the love of God and to preach the everlasting gospel to a sick and dying world, not to redicule one another or to answer the atheist with harsh words, but pray and ask the atheist to please kindly consider his ways and if it be true that all of these things are nonsense why does it bother him so much, could it be that the Lord is speaking to him and his conscience is bearing witness against him that this is a convicting video that is drawing his mind back to the Creator? hummm. I believe with all of my heart that the main reason these or this atheist is here is because someone has shown him the video and the holy spirit is convicting him of his ways and so becasue of the lack and hardness of his heart he chose to redicule instead of admiting the truth that this is a hard core evidence of the reality of life and the controversy itself as he recalls his life in the controversy itself, and that it seems to be making some sense hummm? pls responds atheist friend, thank you and God bless. Amen and Amen.

I just want to say the power of the Holy Spirit is amazing. It's over 9000 times more powerful than anything satan can throw at us Christians

What I can say is to the Heavenly Father. Your word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. Father in Heaven, you use AF and E. G. White to help us see the truth. We know why we are here. Why you made the worlds. We know why things happen as they do for a reason. You know the reason, we who trust in thee know why you made all things, they were made for your pleasure. To have someone to love you and we are glad you love us. I am glad Father that you have sent your prophets, including Ellen White. Not only are your words a lamp and a light but because of Mrs. White giving her life ministry for your cause, thy words have shone brighter than before. Thanks also for Amazing Facts Ministry. I pray you will lead them always til the end of this current world. This earth was made to be inhabited and it will to it's purification. Inhabited always, first by Adam and Eve, then after sin by many peoples, tongues and nations. After Christ comes it will be inhabited by Satan and his angels for 1000 years, then to the time that Christ returns with the city, it will then be inhabited only by the Righteous. Remember, people who do not want truth will get it anyway when Christ comes in the clouds, not setting His feet on this earth, gathering His saints for that 1000 years in heaven. I just hope people will listen so and be saved so they will be able to stand on that day.

The movie is beautifully made and fills in many gaps in understanding of the Bible. I'm surprised at all the negative comments. Just shows how little they know about the Bible.

I can not wait to get my DVD. When you read Gen. it just make you praise the Lord. And Revelation,it let all the saints of Jesus see ,That we win, Yes we WIN! we have eternal life through Christ. Let all the AMEN, say amen. Amen to the Father and to the the Lamb of the Father Yeshua (JESUS). happy new year ?happy new Year, to all the Amen. Yes we are in the Feast of Trumpet? Rash Hashanah. These are the last three ture holiday on earth given to man by the True God the Holy of Holies the Alpha and Amega ,the creator of Galasy and our universe,Light himself, the great I am, Our Father! Bless is his Holy name . Glory Glory Glory! GOD!

The DVD was good - I agree that the graphics were poor. My only problem is that God the Father and the Holy Spirit was not mentioned (or maybe I need to watch it again). To an unbeliver it may give the impression that we don't believe in the God Head. Pastor Doug please clarify this in your other presentation. Thanks

Sounds like this is the only DVD that they are making. I have searched the site and can't find anything about the Flood now or the new earth, etc.

Every true christian must be aware that satan and his angels use humans to do their work.For those who are biblically ignorant they will be used BY SATAN to spew out all sorts of garbage, thus the negative commentary. A word to the athiests and agnostics and all who dont know god. Satan specializes IN all of the following: HATRED,ANGER,JEALOUSLY,ENVY,SLANDER,CORRUPTION,MOCKERY,PERVERSION,DISAPPOINTMENT,RESENTMENT, BITTERNESS,DEATH,HEARTACHE,DISEASE,MISERY, AMONG OTHER SORROWS. So the DVD was not the best,and will not get rewards from hollywood, BIG DEAL. The point is the truth has been told and this gospel will be preached in all the wolrd, and then the end will come. JESUS IS FOR REAL AND WILL COME AGAIN WHEATHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. WHAT CHARACTER ARE YOU PORTRAYING. GOD BLESS AMAZING FACTS AND PASTOR DOUG.

A friend lent this to me. They are adventists. I don't think there is enough evidence to support 3 claims made:
1) Satan and his angels roamed the universe looking for sympathizers.
2) Adam and Eve wore robes of light and glory
3) Adam and Even spent every 7th day with Yahweh.

However, I can say that I love message and potentency of the truth that is presented. It is presented very clearly. I think it would be helpful to know why, since God can't have evil in His presence, was Lucifer allowed in Heaven at all and why was he later allowed before God to discuss Job.

I will be buying a copy of this DVD for my kids and family members. I think it is very very good material for children to hear, since it is so clear and kid-friendly.

I really think you guys did a great job on this project.

Mike W.

I greatly rejoice in the Lord my soul rejoices with God for he has clothed me in the clothing of salvation, He has wrapped me in a robe of victory, like a bridegroom adorned with a turban and a bride bedecked with her finery (Isaiah 61:10).

When Adam and Eve sin, they lose the clothing of salvation. The result is the loss of Divine protection, of the feeling of nearness and closeness with God, the feeling of a child wrapped in the embrace of a loving mother. It is then that they feel naked. Their response is to cover their bodies, apparently oblivious to the damage done to their souls. In place of this "clothing of salvation" which has dissipated, they cover themselves, but God provides them with new clothing.
In the same way when Moses was in contact with God on the mountain when he came down the bible records his face was shining with light, we must understand that when God came near to some figures they glowed with light.
In heaven all the angels are clothed with light, its this same light that people were afraid of for example at the coming of gabriel to wake Jesus up. And i will now even bring this to our time, when we spent time and i mean real time with God we glow of a kind of light that we dont see but others see in us. I have this experience and its wonderfull.
And when you are close daily to Gods word and prayer Gods light is over you.
Not all things are in the bible written yet things can be safely concluded withouth being in danger of eternal death.
For example the bible says God cursed the snake to crawl on the ground, well if the cursed was lifted up that means he did not crawl on the ground but was flying somehow.

IDK, I like the concept but the trailer seems like the film is a really nice drama and not an epic film (assuming there is more to come). Maybe it should have been animated first. Also, from the trailer, it doesn't appear that Scripture was consulted on set design.

There's no doubt. This DVD will be very usefull to "show" peaple what happened long ago.

Congratulations to everyone behind the project.

AMAZING!

EJ, Brazil.

Sorry about my english... people.

I love it when christian film makers get together to preach the word. Good job guys. Keep it up! I'm proud of you, and more importantly, I know your Father is proud of you.

Hello,

It's sad really to see how far Adventist thinking is still behind in so many ways. We have a story about Lucifer and so forth with an extremely literal interpretation of some portions of the creation story. We don't have any answers as to how it's philosophically possible that evil actually enter perfection or whether one must be a dualist or if there is another answer like Augustine's or C.S. Lewis's in terms of the nature of evil. There is a complete lack of exegetical tact in how the Sabbath issue is presented, and a total misunderstanding of modern Biblical study methods as is displayed in the film's handling of the subject matter.

I know the issues becuase I used to be an Adventist. Now I'm a Roman Catholic and this film has nothing for me. It would excite me before I entered my studies and had a very simple set of tools at my disposal. Sadly, this film shows in many ways the inadequacies of Adventist theology. That is why you will not find academic converts to the Adventist faith, just from it. Sorry to be negative, but I felt it needed to be said.

God be with you all!

reaction on Daniel,
Well nobody can explain how evil came into perfection if one would know the answer then it means we could excuse the sin reason.
Im sorry that you changed from adventist to catholic i dont know the reasons but if you compare all other religion with the bible
you will come to the conclusion that the SDA are nearest to the bible.
SDA is based on the written word.
If you have questions about the teology of sda just post them and I will reply God bless

Hello Kevin,

In regards to evil and the explanation of its existense, that's precisely the answer that's apparently the issue that is to be addressed in this "documentary". Sorry, however I don't know how to interpret "excuse the sin reason.", which sounds something like "we can never know because of reason X". I mentioned Augustine and CS Lewis, they would disagree and so would other leading Christian thinkers today working on the problem of evil.

I had many reasons why I became a Roman Catholic, however it is because when one studies Christian theology from both the scriptural and historical point of view, which are in the same broad grouping, Adventism simply fails as a theoretical explanation of the material we have access to. If I wasn't Catholic, I would be Orthodox or Coptic or some other ancient form of the Christian faith and not one of the many recent splinter Churches that have no successive ties between their communities and the early Church. I know SDA theology extremely well, as I used to preach on the Sabbath and speak at youth rallies and act as an apologist on many occassions. I would simply suggest that you read about Catholicism from its own sources and not what Adventism has to say about it. There are many sources online that responds to SDA"ism". I have everything from EGW's complete writings to the DARCOM series and Bacchiocchi's books, they just aren't convincing and can't match, for me in anycase, the fulness I find in the Divine Liturgy and partaking of the true Eucharist.

Sorry, this blog isn't meant for this, God be with you all.

Hello Kevin,

In regards to evil and the explanation of its existense, that's precisely the answer that's apparently the issue that is to be addressed in this "documentary". Sorry, however I don't know how to interpret "excuse the sin reason.", which sounds something like "we can never know because of reason X". I mentioned Augustine and CS Lewis, they would disagree and so would other leading Christian thinkers today working on the problem of evil.

I had many reasons why I became a Roman Catholic, however it is because when one studies Christian theology from both the scriptural and historical point of view, which are in the same broad grouping, Adventism simply fails as a theoretical explanation of the material we have access to. If I wasn't Catholic, I would be Orthodox or Coptic or some other ancient form of the Christian faith and not one of the many recent splinter Churches that have no successive ties between their communities and the early Church. I know SDA theology extremely well, as I used to preach on the Sabbath and speak at youth rallies and act as an apologist on many occassions. I would simply suggest that you read about Catholicism from its own sources and not what Adventism has to say about it. There are many sources online that responds to SDA"ism". I have everything from EGW's complete writings to the DARCOM series and Bacchiocchi's books, they just aren't convincing and can't match, for me in anycase, the fulness I find in the Divine Liturgy and partaking of the true Eucharist.

Sorry, this blog isn't meant for this, God be with you all.

hey daniel:
Well what i dont mean is that we wont never know the reason I think God Himself will have to give us the reason why Lucifer
rebelled.
I dont know about darcom series and bacciohis books i have to look up those books what you mean.

Well im a catcholic too, cause it simply means worldwide and sda are worldwide.
Im a yehova witness too for I testify for Yehova
IM a baptist too for i too believe in the baptism by immmersion and so I can go on.
The reason why i remained in the sda is that i have done exhaustive research on most religions and comparing them
with the bible. There is so many other things i appreciate in other religions and churches I even have good friends in them.
But when it comes to truth such as the ten commandments, sabbath, sanctuary, worship of dead people, hell teachings,
the millenium, health message, the trinity, and all the other teachings, it boils for me down to SDA church.
Now im not telling anyone to become a SDA cause its not religion that will save, its Jesus Christ, getting to know Him
John 17:3. This is the most important thing. But as I said when it comes to teachings I dont see any other religion
closest to the truths of the bible as sda.
Thats why i always say SDA is compared to all the truths which other religions have which can be biblically backed under one roof.
I respect you daniel that youve become catholic but when it comes to truths in the catcholism i just disrespectfully disagree.

But God bless and remember john 17:3
Eternal life is knowing Jesus
Eternal death is not knowing Jesus

What a load of malarkey, seriously the religious right are as crazy as the muslim maniacs

On what Mikel said

A friend lent this to me. They are adventists. I don't think there is enough evidence to support 3 claims made:
1) Satan and his angels roamed the universe looking for sympathizers.
2) Adam and Eve wore robes of light and glory
3) Adam and Even spent every 7th day with Yahweh.

However, I can say that I love message and potentency of the truth that is presented. It is presented very clearly. I think it would be helpful to know why, since God can't have evil in His presence, was Lucifer allowed in Heaven at all and why was he later allowed before God to discuss Job.

I will be buying a copy of this DVD for my kids and family members. I think it is very very good material for children to hear, since it is so clear and kid-friendly.

I really think you guys did a great job on this project.

Mike W.


I have the Bible and Ellen White and that is good enough for me. We as adventist have a prophet, Ellen G. White . The whole world would have a prophet but they don't want to believe what the Bible says. Sons and Daughters will prophesy and old men and women will dream dreams. God said it for a reason, because He was going to send prophets. Even in our time. Read the Great Controversy and Patriarchs and Prophets, Prophets and Kings. Ellen White wrote those books and had only a 3rd grade education. Who do you think helped her to write, it was the Lord. Amen

@Daniel At this moment you are indeed lost my friend for you have turned your back upon the truth.

From your posts it seems that you may have never examined your faith for yourself and found your own conviction. Rather it might have been assigned to you. It seems you might have become a pastor simply to garner the approval of those close to you. Perhaps it was expected. Sadly in your heart it might not have been felt. From your words it seems once challenged you let the banner fall and you fell into a deep slumber that led you to your post today.

I however knew not the Sabbath and of Seventh-Day Adventists in my youth. We bought and sold in blindness on the Sabbath. However when presented, the Sabbath message resounded a note of truth from a chord that calls one's attention and strikes deep within one's self. Truth needs not bolstering from complicated terms and intricate philosophies. Truth is plain and sharp on its own. Look to Martin Luther’s revelation and conversion experience by truth as an example.

We can debate scriptures, ideologies, theologies, interpretations, prophecies, and the like from now until the LORD returns. However historical record shows that the Catholic Church deliberately changed the day of worship from the 7th day.

First Sunday Law enacted by Emperor Constantine – March, 321 A.D.

“On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.”

Then 42 years later in 363 A.D. at the Council of Laodicea, the Catholic Church formally renounced the Sabbath and instituted their new Lord's Day, Sunday.

Seventh-Day Sabbath worship condemned in The Council of Laodicea, Canon 29 – 363-364 A.D.
"Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ."

In Canon 29 we read that the day was changed simply as a way to build the brand of Roman Catholicism and distinguish it from the Christianity and Judaism. No special interpretation or explanation is needed.

Sheepishly and surreptitiously tearing down the Seventh-Day Adventist Church and hiding behind the admission that this is not the proper forum for such discussion is a passive aggressive way of evangelizing your faith and debating truth. Though training and education is very important we are not saved by rejecting the fourth commandment. Seek ye the Word of God anew. I pray that you rediscover the purity and simple truth of the Sabbath and return to keeping the seventh day Sabbath.

May the Holy Spirit rain on you Brother Daniel.

Great job...I like the clip already ...

Dear exbrother Daniel,
I am now a seventhday adventists, however i was once a non-believer who never knew GOD nor did i have any interest in his words the scriptures, anyhow just from the standpoint of viewing your comments and others i can clearly see that you brother are in serious danger for i am married to a devout Roman catholic and he and his entire family are very strong believers in the catholic system, however when the subjects in relations to the scripture and the teachings of the roman catholic system comes to view they could not give an answer for what they believe neither can they give any scriptures from the bible for which they teach and believe, so brother i can see clearly that the though you were once a strong seventhday adventists pastor i believe that you have been ensnare by the devil and that you have crucified the LORD YOUR GOD AFRESH TO THE CROSS BY TURNING YOU BACK AND GOING BACK TO MOTHER ROME WHOME YOU KNEW AND WHICH THE LORD HAD CALLED YOU OUT FROM AMONG THE BABYONIAN TEACHINGS and to say to GOD your words are not true but the words of the Roman preist is more true than that of the scriptures humm? , So i say to you as a sister in Christ friend it is not too late to turn repent and come out from among her my people says the LORD OF HOST, brother i believe that since you kew all of these things and turned back then i might even be persuaded to believe that you are probably one of those Jesuit trained preist that ALBERTO REVIERA was trying to tell the Christian world back then before romed murdered him w/poison on how that the Roman Catholic church in an effort to try to convert all Christianity to Catholism they would by every degree trained all of their youth in the Jesuit schools to enter into the Protestant Churches and pervert their teachings and twist the scriptures using every deceivableness that they can conjour up to turn protestants towards the road back to rome and to unite with MOTHER ROME AND HER TEACHINGS AND THAT THEY WOULD HOLD HANDS TOGETHER AS PROPHESIED IN REVELATION, HOW I WONDER THESES THINGS FROM TIME TO TIME ABOUT WHAT EX-JESUIT PASTOR RIVIERA TRIED TO TELL US AND THAT HE WAS KILLED FOR EXITING ROME, AND AS YOU CAN SEE EVEN THE BOOK OF REVELATIONS HAS DESCRIBED THE VERY SYSTEM THAT WILL KILL GODS PEOPLE AND WILL BE DESTROY WHEN THE LORD COMES TO SAVE HIS TRUE SAINTS THOSE WHO KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD AND THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST NOT VIRGIN MARY , AND THAT WOULD INCLUDE THE SABBATH AND ALL OF THE OTHERS NOT JUST SOME OR CHANGE SOME, SO CAN YOU SEE WHY I SAY BROTHER THAT YOU HAVE BEEN BEGILE BY SATAN TO BELIEVE THAT THE ROMAN CATHOLIC SYSTEM IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM CAN POSSIBLY BE THE TRUED REMNANT OF GOD AND THAT SHE IS A HOLY CHURCH? I WILL AWAIT YOUR RESPONSE TO THIS, THANK YOU AND MAY THE LORD HELP YOU IN YOUR SEARCH, IF YOU OR ANYONE LIKE MORE ANSWERS or what pastor ALBERTO RIVIERA HAS TO SAY ABOUT THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AND HOW SHE PLAYED A MAJOR ROLE IN BIBLE PROPHECY THEN PLS DO VISIT: WWW.SPIRITUALLYSMART.COM, GOD BLESS AND MAY THE LORD HELP YOU COME BACK BECAUSE ROME IS ABOUT TO COME OUT OF HER WILDERNESS AGAIN AND SOONER THEN MOST THINK.

This is a message to all atheists,agnostics,scoffers,mockers and evolutionists. If you dont believe in God,then what or who do you believe in? the toothfairy,the abominable snowman,the lochness monster, maybe bigfoot. Since you are descendants from apelike ancestors, what do you see when YOU LOOK IN THE MIRROR ? Gorilla maybe,Chimpanzee,baboon,orangutan,monkey ? Come on now do you really believe that nonsense ? I see a human being made in the image and likeness of an almighty creator when i look in the mirror. The bottomline is that EVOLUTION IS BASELESS AND SENSELESS. Many scientists are now ridiculing evolution and becoming creationists. Dont even bother to tell me about carbon dating,ask any chemist and he/she will tell you that the carbon dating methods used are Inaccurate and inconclusive, so all of your fancy geological time periods are brainwashing flaws. To believe that this world evolved by chance is the same as if all the parts of an airplane were floating around in space, and then somehow after a gazillion years as you would claim, a perfectly streamlined 747 would evolve. I am no mathematician, but what are the odds of that happening? The very computers that you type on had a designer, so isnt it logical to say that the universe and everything within it had a designer. EVERYTHING THAT EVER WAS EXSISTENT SPELLS DESIGN AND CREATION NOT EVOLUTION.

Do not be discouraged anything done for the Kingdom is spiritual combat for the faithful ! Thanks and keep up the great work !

well said brother Lydell G,
I totally agree with you eventhough i don't know much about evolution i do know that if that were the case that we came from monkeys then even today all creatures will continue to evolve even humans into something else i guess, ha.. ha..ha.........
i'm sorry it was just a very good explanation that you made and funny.....OH AND JUST A SLIGHT WARNING TO ALL MY SEVENTHDAY ADVENT BROTHERS AND SISTERS BEWARE THERE MIGHT BE SOME JESUITS AMONG OUR MIDST GOD BLESS......

This is a response to sister Jane,
hello sister in christ, i wanted to give you some input on the psychotic medicine, I tried some of those medicines before and i will tell you that those pills are extremely dangerous, because they are ment to cause you to lose control of your emotions i know because i took a pill that was given to me to relax my mind from a psyh doctor, and i notice that the very first pill that i took nearly caused me to lose control of my thinking ability making me very agitate and angry constantly, it seemed that every little thing bother the day light out of me and i would get upset over every little thing, so i stop and think for a minute while this was happening why i have never acted this way before why all of sudden do i have all these outburst, so that was when i realize that it was that psych pill that i took, so i allowed it to leave my system for two days and when the medication was completely gone from my system i notice that i was myself again,so you see those pills are design to cause a person to lose control both psychically and mentally, i believe that they are very dangerous and that all christians should avoid them, thats my advice, oh and you are not the only one feeling that God isn't speaking to you because i do feel that from time to time but you know what no matter how much doubt Satan puts in my mind that the Lord is not with me i choose not to believe that i choose to believe that this is the great work of Satan to cause doubts of Gods love for me and so i press forward trusting and believing the promise of the Lord : I will never leave thee nor forsake thee: god bless i hope this helps.

Come on atheists, mockers, scoffers,pagans et al ,aren't you going to answer me ? Or is your belief in evolution and your faith in ape like ancestors now wavering. Where are your so called brilliant theories about the origins of humans and the universe? Where is your witty and sarcastic ridicule of christianity, creation, and all the people in this world who believe in god ? What's the matter? Cat got your tongues,or should i say your thought processes? Come on now i wrote you message and now a week has passed. Where is your evidence of evolution? Please i am begging you to respond with your intellectual evolutionary psychobabble. Present your evidence and convince me and the other believers that you are descendants of apelike ancestors, and your GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDMA WAS LUCY FROM AFRICA. Tell me when and where exactly did the big bang occur and where did all the matter for this cataclismic event come from. Dont tell me 15 billion years ago, already heard that one. Are you going to summon Charles Darwin form the dead and ask him for answers ? Even Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking believed in God and that the universe and everything in it was intricately designed and created. They recognized the complexity of the universe and came to the conclusion that there had to be creation not evolution its too complex just to have evolved by chance and out of nothingness. Sir Issac newton and Galileo were pioneering scientists as well as the great Leonardo the human anatomist all believed in God and creation. Do you even know their contributions to modern scientific principles and thoughts? Are you going to argue against what the pioneers and fathers of modern science have said. Wake up from your unbelief and evolutionary slumber and know that GOD IS REAL AND EVOLUTION IS A TWISTED LIE.

Come on atheists, mockers, scoffers,pagans et al ,aren't you going to answer me ? Or is your belief in evolution and your faith in ape like ancestors now wavering. Where are your so called brilliant theories about the origins of humans and the universe? Where is your witty and sarcastic ridicule of christianity, creation, and all the people in this world who believe in god ? What's the matter? Cat got your tongues,or should i say your thought processes? Come on now i wrote you message and now a week has passed. Where is your evidence of evolution? Please i am begging you to respond with your intellectual evolutionary psychobabble. Present your evidence and convince me and the other believers that you are descendants of apelike ancestors, and your GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDMA WAS LUCY FROM AFRICA. Tell me when and where exactly did the big bang occur and where did all the matter for this cataclismic event come from. Dont tell me 15 billion years ago, already heard that one. Are you going to summon Charles Darwin form the dead and ask him for answers ? Even Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking believed in God and that the universe and everything in it was intricately designed and created. They recognized the complexity of the universe and came to the conclusion that there had to be creation not evolution its too complex just to have evolved by chance and out of nothingness. Sir Issac newton and Galileo were pioneering scientists as well as the great Leonardo the human anatomist all believed in God and creation. Do you even know their contributions to modern scientific principles and thoughts? Are you going to argue against what the pioneers and fathers of modern science have said. Wake up from your unbelief and evolutionary slumber and know that GOD IS REAL AND EVOLUTION IS A TWISTED LIE.

I am amazed with this fillm. I've just seen it in www.redadvenir.org This is really what people needs to know to understand why bad things happen to good people. People needs to understand where we came from, what is the purpose of life, where do we go. Thanks so much for make my faith to strengthen. Thanks for all the effort you are doing to spread the gospel. You pastor and your team is doing a great job for God. Definitively, God is using you all to open the eyes of a lot in this world. Surely, God will bless you richly. I would like to get this DVD. We need to be positive all the time with persons like you, and the best you are doing for Jesus, our Savior!!! Amen, amen, and amen forever!!!

This is one of the best christian movies i have ever seen... mabe some of the people who didnt like it could give an input of how to make it better!
Good Job AF

Wow! Funny stuff. Seriously, though, you people scare me.

So... did nobody notice Sarah posting about her pastor wanting to have sex with her? Its about half way up the page... Maybe it was a joke that nobody understood (I really hope so).

So does anybody actually expect this film to bring people to Christ (is anyone outside of your 'religion' going to watch this--ever)? Is this what the Great Commission is all about--making crappy movies and defending them as the Gospel truth (and calling anyone who has anything bad to say about it an atheist)? Is there not a better way of sharing the Gospel with people? I dont know, maybe getting to know our neighbors and loving people around us...

@ "By actually not an atheist on"

Sarah's comment is someone's idea of a subtle joke. If you don't get it then it sounds innocuous. If you do get it then you know someone is having a laugh.

The purpose of the video is to explain why there is bad on this world by sharing the story of the fall of Lucifer and the fall of man.

As for the expectations of the film we leave that to GOD and pray that those that see it are drawn closer to Him. For Adventists beyond simply educating about Jesus and fulfilling the Great Commission, we also seek to correct the error that the 1st Day is the Sabbath. The 7th day is the Sabbath for the day was never changed. Also we seek to enlighten the world that Jesus is going to return again and take us to New Jerusalem. This is the Advent part of our Church's name. As for loving those around us Seventh Day Adventists do. Get to know us in person at a local church. I have spent many Sabbath's talking to the visitor's and making them welcome and at home as do many other members. "So talk your shoes off. Set a spell. Y'all come back now ya hear?"

Its amazing to me that the skeptics, evolutionists and atheists have gone silent after my challenge. They had so much to say about the DVD and were readyto criticize,ridicule and belittle it. The truth is people who claim to be atheists are just in denial about god. If they were held up at gunpoint,thier house burnt down or they find out from the doctor's office that they have six months to live because of cancer or aids i can bet you all the money in the world that they WILL BE THINKING ABOUT GOD.It is in one of the proverbs of solomon that it is said only the fool says in his/her heart that there is no god. Look around you in the world ,and behold the natural beauty. Behold the complexity of the human body and the mind boggling size of the universe. Do you still say that there is no god, and we are all products of chance and chemical and biological reactions. I think not. Prove me wrong. The lord is the maker of us all may all flesh and holy angels worship him throughout all eternity.GOD BE PRAISED FOREVER. God bless pastor doug and the amazing facts ministry.

I saw the trailer to this DVD on Amazing Facts and have two questions. First, it shows that Lucifer became an evil angel before the creation of the world, and second, does this mean that the SDA belief is that there was a gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2?
Also, what is the SDA belief as to the age of the universe? and the age of the earth?
Thank you,

I saw the trailer to this DVD on Amazing Facts and have two questions. First, it shows that Lucifer became an evil angel before the creation of the world, and second, does this mean that the SDA belief is that there was a gap between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2?
Also, what is the SDA belief as to the age of the universe? and the age of the earth?
Thank you,

I just wanted to say Praise be to GOD our FATHER which is in heaven that though there are many scoffers and mockers, at least someone has the boldness to speak for the LORD in Spirit and in TRUTH according to the scriptures and not according to the unwise thinking of fallen men. Let JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR BE BLESSED AND HONOR ABOVE ALL ELSE LET THIS MIGHTY WORK OF THE LORD CONTINUE TO RING THROUGHOUT ALL THE LAND AS A WITNESS UNTO ALL NATIONS AS THE LORD HATH SAITH. OUR LORD HAS DECLARED IN HIS WORDS, FOR THERE WILL BE SCOFFERS AND MOCKERS IN THE LAST DAYS SEEKING AFTER THE LUST OF THEIR OWN HEARTS, WELL HOW ABOUT THAT THIS PROPECY HAS SURELY BEEN FULFULLED OVER AND OVER AGAIN SINCE THE DAYS OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR AND EVEN UNTIL NOW, MAY GOD HELP THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW HIM AND GIVE THEM A SPIRIT OF REPENTENCE SO THAT THEY TOO SHALL KNOW OF THE LOVE OF THE FATHER THROUGH HIS ONE AND ONLY SON JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED. AMEN.
LYDELL , DON'T BE AFRAID WE ARE NOT SCARY PEOPLE BUT WE LOVE YOU AS A FRIEND AND AS A BROTHER BECAUSE YOU SEE WE ALL CAME FROM ONE PARENT AND THAT IS ADAM AND EVE AND SO MAYBE WE MIGHT NOT HAVE THE SAME COLOR SKIN OR LANGUAGE WE ARE STILL YOUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS AND JESUS SAYS THAT IF A MAN DOES NOT LOVE HIS BROTHER IN WHOM HE SEES, THEN HOW WILL HE LOVE THE ONE THAT SENT ME IN WHOM HE HAS NOT SEEN, NO 0NE CAN SURELY SAY THAT HE LOVES GOD IF HE DOES NOT LOVE HIS BROTHER, SO LYDELL WE ADVENTISTS DO LOVE YOU AS A BROTHER AND A FRIEND IN JESUS DON'T BE AFRAID WE ONLY WISH FROM OUR HEARTS THAT YOU COME TO KNOW THE LORD AND HIM CRUCIFIED FOR YOUR SINS AND TRANGRESSIONS, I PRAY FRIEND THAT WHATEVER MIGHT HAVE BEEN SAID WILL NOT BE MISUNDERSTOOD AS AN ATTACK OR ANGER BUT A SPECIAL LOVE FOR THOSE WHO MIGHT NOT POSSESED AND KNOW THE LORD AND HIS SON, I PRAY FRIEND THAT YOU WILL CONTINUE TO VISIT AND OPEN YOUR HEART TO GOD SO THAT HE CAN HEAL YOU. AMEN.

OOPS SORRY LYDELL THAT WAS NOT MEANT FOR YOU I MEANT IF FOR THE Rednavy5 LISTED ABOVE, AMEN.

Donald K asked the question of what we Adventists believe about the age of the earth. We believe that the earth was made in 6, 24 hour days (Exodus 20:11). We believe that our galaxy was which would include our sun and moon and the stars surrounding us were also created in 6 days (Genesis 1:14-19)

We do not believe in a gap theory between Genesis 1:1-2. There is just no scriptural evidence for it.

We do believe that God had created other planets, heavenly bodies, and angels before our planet was formed (Job 38:4-7). Now the stars mentioned in Genesis 1 were created in 6 days but these were not all the stars in the universe. Let me explain why:

Verse 14 of Genesis 1 states, "Then God said, 'Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;"

Verse 15, "and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth".

These lights were to serve 2 purposes. Two calculate the seasons, and to give light to the earth. The sun and moon give us light or atleast the moon reflects it. The ancients calculated the months back then by using the moon and many europeans used the sun to see when winter was just ahead. The stars also give us light. In fact, sailors back then used the stars as a guiding point while sailing at night. That is the purpose of why God created the heavenly bodies of our galaxy.

But we don't use the heavenly lights from other galaxies, so those were not the ones mentioned in Genesis 1. Many other planets, stars, moons, etc, could have been created at different times depending on how God likes it. We must remeber that God is a God of creation. He doesn't just create a universe and just stops there. NO! He is infinite! He doesn't stop. Who knows what He is creating now. And who knows what universes he could have created before our world. But whatever the case, all I know is that He created this world in six literal days as the Bible says and I say Amen to that.

Anyway, that's what we Adventists believe.

Amen to that Nathan!!

Happy Sabbath everyone! May you be drawn closer to the LORD; rest from your daily burdens; be a light to others; and be able to stand and not cower when the LORD Jesus returns again.

Happy Sabbath everyone. Amazingly God is working on us.. Thanks so much.. God Bless.

yes amen to that Happy Sabbath to all my brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus our loving Saviour, and even to the Atheists, amen.

God be praised forever throughout all eternity. It seems that the critics, cynics,atheists ,mockers and scoffers have gone into their shells and are silenced. Thanks for the encouragement brother, I am not afraid to speak boldly for the lord and all true desciples of jesus must have the same mental fortitude and spirit. It is important to know how to defend our faith and belief system when it is challenged by unbeleivers ,atheists, scoffers and worldlings. Jesus said that "he who confessess me before men him will i confess before my father, but he who denies me before men him will i deny before my father." WE SHOLUD NOT BE AFRAID OR TIMID OR ASHAMED TO SPEAK ABOUT OUR BELIEF IN GOD OR OUR LOVE FOR GOD, other people of different religious pursuations are willing to DIE for their faith. There will come a time in the not too distant future where all true believers in JESUS CHRTST will be tested and persecuted for our faith by people who think they are doing service for god but who have received the MARK OF THE BEAST. As seventh day adventists christians, we must be aware of the inevitable persecution that that bible prophecy speaks of in the book of revelation. We must pray to god each day to give us his holy spirit and strength so that we can always be ready to speak boldly and not with doubt or fear. May god bless all who come on this website and all the people of this world that are blinded by atheism,unbelief, evolution and hatred that they may come to know the wonderful,glorious and beautiful god of the universe. our lord and blessed saviour.

Based on the sheer amount of bilious diatribes spewing forth from the true believers on this comment page so far, I don't picture heaven being a very enjoyable place to spend five minutes, much less eternity. Thanks, but I'll take annihilation, please.

We were all so excited to receive this video. We have 5 kids and all of them love to watch this each Sabbath. It gives us such hope and shows what love Jesus has for all of us. I especially liked the part where Jesus is forming man and what joy and pleasure Jesus had in forming Adam. I look forward to the next video. This is not a "Hollywood" style movie meant to entertain, but to inform and give us a mental image of what the Bible is trying to tell us. Yes, I want to be in Heaven with Jesus and I want everyone else to share eternity with our Maker. This is real. Not a fantasy. We need to spread this Gospel to everyone! Thank you Amazing Facts for this video as well as the Final Events video. These videos help us focus on our salvation through Jesus! Praise the Lord! I want to be there!

This response is for my brothers and sisters of humankind who are atheists. Do you "believe" you have a brain? No one can see it, however, YOU know and some other people know it is there. Well, I live by faith you have a brain even though you, nor anybody else can prove it. Sure, there are some things that support your theory of having a brain, but you still cannot prove it.
Now there are a lot of people who cannot prove God exists. However, we live by faith because of the evidence we see. IF you are right and there is no God, and we live our lives our way then die and that's it. Okay. BUT WHAT IF you are wrong, and we live like there is no God, then die and find out there is. THEN WHAT??? For peace and harmony sake on this planet, I would rather live like there is a God and die, period Then to live like there isn't and die to find out the "judgement."
Think about this: (using the words of Carman) "...if there is a plan, there is a planner, if there is a design, there is a designer." A big bang could not have all the planets, stars, water, and air cordinated to perfection. If this planet was a few degrees closer to the sun, we'd burn...a few degrees farther, we freeze. Our Milky Way would not be in existence, because the planets would crash because there is no Power greater to hold them in their paths. Think about it people. There is a "GREATER POWER' and He is called GOD!!!
Oh, and to all my brothers and sisters in Christ: Greetings in the name of Jesus!!! Keep the faith, and may God richly bless you.
Aleta :) in my heart.

@Dalek Lest you be born again New Jerusalem, the New Heaven, and the New Earth will not be an enjoyable place, nor will our hearts welcome it. Do not let Davros, the adversary sway you. Cling to the Doctor, the true Doctor. Who is HE? HE is JESUS the Christ. Try reading a modern translation of proverbs and Ecclesiastes and then Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Please return again and fellowship with us.

Happy Sabbath Again folks!

Amazing Facts remember your labour is not in vain 1 Cor 15. Thank you for all your hard work. Our people need to watch battle field Hollywood also. GB Praise God for your ministry.

To Dalek: Remove your heart of stone and replace it with a heart of flesh. Your tone is cold and critical. Heaven will be a place of purity, eternal joy,love and peace. All who intend to get there must be born again and give their life to Jesus to receive the free gift of salvation. It is devil that hardens our hearts and cloggs our ears spiritually so that we reject GOD. The question you should ask yourself honestly is are YOU going to be there ? or do YOU want to even go there? Everyone who makes it will be more than qualified to be there. I am hoping you are not an atheist and that these is some kind of wisdom and intellect in that mind of yours. Dont let the enemy satan cause you to miss out on heaven. I am trying to get there myself and i hope you are too.

hey brothers and sisters i have just discover two really cool websites check them out one is for the Ellen White vision in 3d and the other is for the 3angels messages, they are www.ellenvision.com and the other is 3angeldvd.com it's really cool, maybe the amazing facts could do something like this because it is up to date with technology and maybe they could do one on the vision of daniel and revelation about the prophecies, that will really get the message of love across and include history in it what do all of you think?

I'VE NOT SEEN THE DVD YET, BUT ALL THE NEGATIVE COMMENTS ON THIS SITE MAKES ME EVEN MORE INTERESTED IN WATCHING THIS MOVIE/DOCUMENTARY. I WANT TO DISCOVER FOR MYSELF IF THE MESSAGE IN THE COSMIC CONFLICT DVD IS BASED ON THE WORD OF GOD. THAT'S WHAT'S MOST IMPORTANT TO ME, NOT WHETHER THE GRAPHICS OR THE ACTORS ARE ON THE SAME LEVEL AS HOLLYWOOD ACTORS. IF THE DVD IS BASED ON GOD'S WORD, THEN I'LL BE SHARING IT WITH MY OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS AND FRIENDS.

I hope and pray sincerely each day that the message portrayed by this DVD reaches thousands if not millions of souls for Jesus. People need to know the real truth about death, heaven, the war in heaven, the fall of lucifer, and the origin of sin in the world. The are a lot of skeptics ,scoffers, atheists,and mockers that satan uses to oppose the PLAIN TRUTH OF THE BIBLE.Sad to say many people buy into all of the half truths, lies and skepticism spewed out by these people. The bible teaches us to watch and be faithful for there will be false prophets in the world who will preach false doctrines and deceive the very elect of God if they are not FIRMLY ROOTED IN THEIR FAITH, BELIEFS, AND THE WORD OF GOD. A cousin in Texas who i am very close to told me that the journey of a christian is like paddling upstream in a boat against current in a river. If you continue to paddle you will make FORWARD progerss, but stop paddling and you will end up back downstream. Meaning that if we fail to take care of our spiritual needs and cease from making a daily connection with God through prayer and bible study then we will wither away spiritually as christians and end up back the same as before and sometimes even worse than our previous condition. Christians all over the world seek the truth and it will set you free. Share your faith as people need to know. God bless Amazing facts and my favourite pastor Doug Batchelor. If there ever is a hall of fame for influencial pastors he should be in it, he more than qualifies.

This was a great production! Well put together

Waiting to get my hands on this production. May God be glorified!

i have watched the cosmic conflict and it really touched me, amsitated in zambia and requesting for your team if possible to send me a copy of this DVD so i can share with my friends this great controversy which has been there between GOD and Satan, the Lord almighty really guided and gave you the wisdom to produce such a DVD so timely when alot of souls out there are in a valley of discision not knowing who they should serve, GOD BLESS YOU ALL AS ATEAM

Nathan said angels were not created before our world was but I am an adventist and I do believe angels existed before this earth was, because there was war in heaven and Satan was cast out into this earth. It had to be made for him to be cast into it.
I believe angels rejoiced because God made the earth and what is in it. They were happy and sang together.

In response to Sarah's post: "Recently the head pastor pulled me aside and asked me if I knew how to blow joshua's trumphet, and if i wanted to ride on jonah's whale. Im not sure what hes talking about but I think he wants to take the youth group to Israel cause he asked me if he could swim in the river jordan. Can anyone tell me what scriptures he is talking about?"

...blowing joshua's trumpet, riding jonah's whale, and swim in the river jordan..... nice way to disguise your filthy mind and mocking everyone on forum. Clever? Not really, Sick? Yes.

BTW: To Amazing Facts - Good Work in answering questions many people are facing today and fullfiliing the role that our chosen church does not seem to do (at least not in Australia anyway). May God continue to bless your ministry, as He has been doing.

In response to Lori's comment; I do not believe I ever said that angels did not exist before our world was created. In fact, I believe the contrary I do believe that angels existed long before the first humans were created.

Lori, please tell me where I wrote that in so I could try to fix it.

Felicidades, En verdad que esta presentación me conmovió. Al leer los versos sobre el gran amor de Jesus por la humanidad. Sobre todo la explicación acerca del verdadero motivo para adorar al Señor: El amor.
Doy gracias a Dios, este material me permitirá presentar de una manera didactica el origen del pecado a la luz de las escrituras. Amen

I thought the Cosmic Conflict DVD was very well made for a Christian Ministry & was very well explained and simplified in the way that it will bring many to a better understanding of what it is all about. People can accept or reject as God gave us free will but I hope more people will start waking up to what is going on in this world and how imperfect it really is. And how much better it could be for thoses who desire it to be so, that is. I have purchased alot of DVD's, CD's and Books and Pamplets from Amazing Facts Ministries and I plan on purchasing more. There are plenty of Christian's in this world that will help in supporting Christian Ministries & spreading the gospel around the world that God has plenty "but of course" always desires more and from supporting theses causes more will come as we get closer to the end of this system. I have been watching the Secrets of America's Beginnings the New Atlantis & Riddles In Stones the Secret Architecture of Washington D.C, DVD's & there is no doubt in my mind who the ruler of this system of things is. Worldwide global. I just want to say Thank You Pastor Doug don't ever give up.
I know you won't. Till the end of time. Thanks Again.
Lynn

Personally, I think this blog should be removed from the website. The comments posted herein are far from elevating and in some ways boarder on the profane. Weather you liked the production or not, this is not the place to air ones ugliness.

I was the original Production Designer/Art Director for the Cosmic Conflict. However I would note that I resigned from the position prior to production for various personal reasons, so I am very familiar with all of your feelings and sentiments, both good and bad.

Disclaimer: In closing I would like to state that I was not responsible for any of the imagery, animations or graphics viewed in the released DVD even though my name was listed on the credits.

Nancy Myers

Personally, I think this blog should be removed from the website. The comments posted herein are far from elevating and in some ways boarder on the profane. Weather you liked the production or not, this is not the place to air ones ugliness.

I was the original Production Designer/Art Director for the Cosmic Conflict. However I would note that I resigned from the position prior to production for various personal reasons, so I am very familiar with all of your feelings and sentiments, both good and bad.

Disclaimer: In closing I would like to state that I was not responsible for any of the imagery, animations or graphics viewed in the released DVD even though my name was listed on the credits.

Nancy Myers

This is a wonderful depiction.......thank God.......we need 2 inform people of this

Sorry Nathan you are right you never said that. I thought I read a not in the sentence. My mistake. Sorry.

No two people think alike. Therefore, those seeking to reach the lost need to use a wide variety of ways. The Amazing Facts organization believes that the Cosmic Conflict DVD will appeal to some, but they know that not everyone will like it and that some will discredit it. What are each of you doing to reach the unsaved? Instead of criticizing those who are working as best they can in God's vineyard, go find a ministry of your own to seek and save the lost.

I must be some because I liked it!
I thought it was pretty good.
I think their are others out there that will like it too!
It's for them.
Keep spreading God's word sounds good to me!
Thanks.

I have not yet seen the DVD of the Cosmic Conflict, but from alot of the comments that have been posted on this blog it is clear as to why the DVD is relevant for this time. Good and evil, light and darkness, saved and lost, sheep and goats, wise and foolish, carnal and spiritual, and finally the obedient and disobedient. Don't be surprised at the level of tension and animosity that is evident in the comments posted. The groups are mutually exclusive. However, and I am particulary interested in Nancy Myer's posting, that left a lot unsaid. Ms Myer seems to have a tortured conscience due to her association with this DVD production and I wonder why. Just remember that slick production and killer graphics that so many people are saying that the DVD lacks is just so much hungering and thirsting after Egyptian food. They don't want manna. Manna didn't look good and didn't particulary excite the appetite but it was what Israel needed. Amazing Facts do not have to apologize to anyone for this effort. Be thou faithful unto death and I will give theea crown of Life, Rev. 2:10.

i have seen the movie and it is totally awsome and i wanted to know if i could get a couple of movies for free so i can share the word of god to my friends

Dear Andie

I want to assure you I certainly do not have a "tortured conscience" over the Cosmic Conflict as it was not my work. But I do believe credit should be given where credit is due and counter-wise, it should not be given where it is not due. In all fairness to the production team I felt it only necessary to state that I was not responsible for the final visual output even though my name, unbidden by me and and I believe in courtesy by the Amazing Facts team, appeared on the credits under the list of production designers. Other hands and minds then mine conceived the concepts and rendered the art, please do not read into my words more than I have stated. This will be my last posting on this blog.

Blessings
Nancy Myers

I really enjoyed this video. And as a true child of God, I can say that it was done in a way that most all can understand even though the narrator used a few words that could have been a little more common. No need to impress with words...
God says in Mark 10:15 " whoever does not receive the kingdom (message) of God as a little child will by No means enter it".
I liked the comparison of our relationship with God with that of the robotic dog vs. Gods living creatures that He has made. He did not want preprogramed creatures.
Look in the toy stores at the $$$ man makes from Gods idea's --- only they all need batteries !!! Animal Toys, baby dolls etc...
Non compare with Gods living creatures. It says in the bible that God set a limit to mans intellect, that as hard and long as they may try, they will never be able to create from scratch an intelligent living creature or thing. All they have to work with is the already existing creations and their make-up.
This video will help (sincere) people that want to understand our Creator and His heart. It gives them a visual aid as to how evil came about and why our world has become what it is. However, God says in His word: Romans 1:20 that there will be no excuse on judgement day not to have believed in Him because creation it's self reveals that there is a divine maker that is faaaaarrrrr more advanced than humans. His creatures do not need batteries, they are not mechanical. Also fruits, vegetables, flowers, tree's don't run on batteries. They are battery-less & wireless! Solar Powered if you will. Awesome !!!!
I like to use an apple as an illustration of how God goes (over and above) for his creation. The next time you eat an apple, take out the seeds and count them.. There is usually about 8. Now if you were to plant only one of those seeds , guess what??? God's gonna give you a whole tree full of apples with thousands of seeds! I can't help to brag on you God...
Our 1st parents were spoiled rotten by Your goodness they became selfish, ungrateful and unloyal ! Now we all suffer for it.
I know somewhat how disappointed You feel but yours is on a much greater scale. I raised a few of these brats myself!
Parents don't cater to your children. God help them change their ways... Non the less it's their choice they where raised in Your ways.
Getting back to Gods awesomeness...
Hey did you ever notice that almost all of Gods animal creatures have (2 eyes),(2 ears), (one nose), (one mouth), pretty much the same kind of digestive tract, elimination process OHHH! Don't forget the tails to cover where they eliminate... Wasn't that thoughtful little addition.....
How can anyone think that these things just happened by chance with a big explosion.(?) That's nuts! I drive a mustang and I know that it didn't just boom - bang arrive on the scene. Neither did my house. God septics, use the brain GOD gave you.... Think! Or stay in your misery. God will allow you to keep the things that He has provided for you (for a time).... Your sight,smell,taste, hearing,mobility,your talents/gifts your brain that is far grater than any computer, your food, your very existence. etc.. etc..
By the way, the sexual and perverted remarks that the so called "Sarah" wrote about her supposed pastor was uncalled for. I'm sorry that we have some very nigh-eve bothers and sisters in Christ out there that didn't understand what was being said. And I'm sure that person got a sick rise from some of the responses..
To the makers of this video/DVD... I liked it very much ,but found it a little disturbing when the narrator explained that when the war in heaven happened between Lucifer/his demons and Gods angels, that the earth did not exist at that time.. I'm sorry but this is not so. And to make it look like some kind of star trek movie where satan and his angels (demons) were riding around in an astroid through the universe looking for other worlds and beings to sympathize with them before the earth was created.. This is ridiculous and not scriptural and you know it. In the scripture that You used in this video you put on the screen Revelation 12: 7-12 with the impersonation of God speaking. That scripture clearly states that satan and his angels were cast out of heaven to the earth. You even put those words up on the screen. This causes confusion to people who do not know scripture and I feel that it was careless. Otherwise and for the most part I find it to be an accurate account of what happened and it should bring many that are truly seeking answers about God into His kingdom.
Sincerely, Your sister in Christ - Kim

"If you dont believe in God,then what or who do you believe in? the toothfairy,the abominable snowman,the lochness monster, maybe bigfoot."

No. They're imaginary, too.

"Since you are descendants from apelike ancestors, what do you see when YOU LOOK IN THE MIRROR ? Gorilla maybe,Chimpanzee,baboon,orangutan,monkey ?"

Nope. Human. We diverged from the chimpanzees about five million years ago. Oh... sorry... I mean, WE DIVERGED FIVE MILLION YEARS AGO.

"Many scientists are now ridiculing evolution and becoming creationists."

No, they're not.

"Dont even bother to tell me about carbon dating,ask any chemist and he/she will tell you that the carbon dating methods used are Inaccurate and inconclusive..."

Chemists have nothing to do with carbon dating, but I'll assume that you knew that and meant to say "physicists." I checked the back volumes of the journal "Radiocarbon" at radiocarbon.org and didn't find any papers that show carbon dating methods to be "Inaccurate and inconclusive." Would you point one out to us?

"To believe that this world evolved by chance is the same as if [...] a perfectly streamlined 747 would evolve."

Your analogy is incorrect. Neither 747s nor 747 precursors replicate, so there's nothing for natural selection to act upon. Replication and natural selection are what allow the odds to be spread among billions of individuals and be cumulative.

"I am no mathematician..."

Biology, physics, chemistry, geology and English aren't your strong suits, either.

"The very computers that you type on had a designer, so isnt it logical to say that the universe and everything within it had a designer."

My computer is plugged into the wall, so everything in the Universe must also be plugged into the wall. Google the phrase "non sequitur".

"EVERYTHING THAT EVER WAS EXSISTENT SPELLS DESIGN AND CREATION NOT EVOLUTION."

I think there's something wrong with your CAPS LOCK key.

"Where are your so called brilliant theories about the origins of humans and the universe?"

The ones that pass peer review are published in scientific journals. The Highwire project at highwire.stanford.edu indexes a ton of them, has a terrific search engine and indicates which papers can be viewed for free. Spending a few minutes at that site may help you see just how much you don't know.

"Tell me when and where exactly did the big bang occur and where did all the matter for this cataclismic event come from."

Time and space came into existence at the moment of the Big Bang, so your question doesn't really make sense. I know what you mean, though. Go to the Highwire project and search on "cosmology".

"Dont tell me 15 billion years ago, already heard that one."

So, you're ignorant on purpose?

"Are you going to summon Charles Darwin form the dead and ask him for answers ?"

Nobody's ever come back from the dead. Nobody. Ever.

"Even Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking believed in God and that the universe and everything in it was intricately designed and created."

No, they didn't. Both Einstein and Hawking have written that they used the word "God" in the same sense as the philosopher Spinoza. In case your Googling finger's broken, Spinoza didn't believe in a personal god or creator of any kind.

"Sir Issac newton and Galileo were pioneering scientists as well as the great Leonardo the human anatomist all believed in God and creation."

If I had lived during the Renaissance, I'd probably be a creationist, too.

"Do you even know their contributions to modern scientific principles and thoughts?"

Yes.

"Are you going to argue against what the pioneers and fathers of modern science have said."

Considering that there's been around three hundred years of progress since then, I think I'm pretty safe doing so.

"GOD IS REAL AND EVOLUTION IS A TWISTED LIE."

Your CAPS LOCK is busted again.

Wonko T Sane

Your question
"an omniscient god who saw all that Lucifer would do from the moment that this being thought of creating Lucifer yet created Lucifer anyway. Why?"

Because God although he knows the future, he isn´t is a tyrant God. He gives to all, the freedom of choice an decision. This is the reason because God create Lucifer anyway. Lucifer, like all of us, had the chance of free choice and he take a decision.

Your complete post:

"The problem, of course, comes from the idea that an omniscient god who saw all that Lucifer would do from the moment that this being thought of creating Lucifer yet created Lucifer anyway. Why? The only explanation is that this omniscient being who is also omnipotent wanted Lucifer to do what he saw Lucifer would do."

Lucifer became satan (opposer or enemy of God) by his own free choice.... God did not "choose" that for him...
God had rules, guidelines and consequences for disobedient choices or behavior and still does to protect the happiness and well being of those who want to live a happy and heathy life ..
If there are never any guidelines then there would only be constant chaos, confusion and misery for all involved. This is the realm that satan and his demons have chosen. satans whole mission now is to steal, kill and destroy all because he's mad that he can't be GOD!
That's like one of my grown children yelling at me like a lunatic. Trying to convince me that because she is of a certain age that she knows this or that or is somehow more intelligent in certain area's than I am. (Well I haven't always been a Christian. I wasn't raised with any teaching about God) What I mean is that I am not totally clueless about life.
So, I just look at my daughter in disbelief and say you know what I've already been down every road your going down and know the best solution to help you, but because of your rebellious nature and unwillingness to listen to someone that's been there and done that, then keep falling on your butt and having nothing and wondering why.... She could prevent her chaotic lifestyle "if" she would only "humble" herself and put to use the things that someone with more life experience has to offer for her solution.. But as long as she refuses and stays in her know it all rebellion, then nothing will ever get better. Insanity is : Doing the same thing over and over and never getting a different result.
People can choose God's ways out of love and respect for the One who made us, with the understanding that He knows best and only has our best interest at heart. Or people can demand to do things their own way and suffer the consequences. Everyone has a free will.
Some people are grown and never knew God growing up or never really knew anything about Him. It's not too late. I was one of those people... This DVD explains a lot of the basics. We are living at the very end of the end times. I hope anyone who reads this will make a choice that will lead you into the life that God has intended for your good. God has a plan for your life and so does satan. Choose your path.

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God." Psalm 53:1

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." Proverbs 9:10

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." 1 Corinthians 13:11

"Be it known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God hath, raised from the dead, even by him this man standeth here before you whole. 'This is the stone which was rejected by you the builders, which is become the head of the corner.' Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven, given to men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4: 10-12

replica handbags cannot save you. Accept Jesus the Christ as your Saviour.

"And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." Philippians 4:7

"The superstitious man wishes he did not believe in gods, as the atheist does not, but fears to disbelieve in them." -Plutarch

If there is an atheist or agnostic out there. Please show us one piece of evidence for macro-evolution. And if you do have real evidence for it... how does that prove that God does not exist?

By the way, Mariana posted that many evolutionists are "not" converting to the creation or intelligent design theory. I would recomend her to read the article of Washington Times, 1998 which states that 55% of biology scientists are evolutionists. Which must mean that the other 45% believe in Intelligent Design. The article stated also that every that percentage keeps growing. Ofcourse, Intelligent Design is still not as popular, but the surveys are still there. I wonder what the surveys would say by now?

"Nobody's ever come back from the dead." Isn't that what you stated Mariana? What would you say about the Jesus case then? Not to sound rhetorical, but I am curious to know your opinion on that if you don't mind me asking.

Do you have a title, author or even month for the Washington Times article of 1998? That's a broad span in which to find a single article in a daily newspaper and, not surprisingly, a Google search with what you gave me didn't turn anything up. I suspect, though, that the article was a reference to the results of a 1998 survey published in Nature ("Leading Scientists Still Reject God" by E. Larson and L. Witham, Nature v. 394, p. 313) and the details have become garbled over time. The survey showed that 5.5% of biologists (and 7.9% of scientists in general) believe in God (the survey didn't address evolution). In addition, this number is shrinking from previous surveys (18% in 1933 and 35% in 1914). Biologists are not rejecting evolution and are less likely to be religious believers than scientists of other disciplines.

"One piece of evidence for macro-evolution" is the genomic pattern between species. Closely releated species share similar DNA sequences with each other. While this in itself could also be evidence of common design, "endogenous retroviruses" are not. Some viruses (called retroviruses) insert DNA into chromosomes of infected cells. If one of these cells leads to a sperm or ovum, then the (now inactive) virus DNA is passed on to children (and their children...). Some of these infection sites are shared between humans and chimpanzees. Since the insertion site of the virus is random across all of an individual's DNA, it is essentially impossible that the same virus would infect two individuals in exactly the same point on the same chromosome and more recent infections can be identified within population groups. Finding the same virus DNA at the same point in both humans and chimpanzees (and there are several of these occurrences) indicates that they share a common ancestor that was infected by one of these viruses. Unless God planted the virus infections in different species to fool us.

Jesus died and stayed dead.

That is very impresive Mariana. I appreciate that you have had the time to answer my question. By the way, it was August 31, 1998. "Leading Scientists Still Reject God", interesting, maybe because that's the only way a person is aloud to become a leading scientist these days.

But just in case you have forgoten, let me ask again on how that is evidence that God does not exist? And when I say God I don't mean exclusivly the God of the Old Testament. But instead, a being we might call...a "Designer". What if "God" or whoever he is, decided to use evolution?

One more thing, you state plainly that Jesus is dead and buried to this day. What evidence do you have to support your conclusion?

Only one article in the Washington Times on that date ("Whites ponder future of their race") contains the word "scientists" and it doesn't talk about scientists giving up evolution.

Even if, for the sake of argument, we assume that one must reject God before becoming a scientist as you suggest, the survey still shows that "many" biologists are not giving up on evolution.

I did forget to answer the second part of your question. None of this is proof that God doesn't exist, as you correctly point out. It is proof, however, that any religious framework that denies evolution as part of its doctrine is necessarily false. One can, of course, describe a god that created everything exactly as it is, six thousand years ago (or ten minutes ago). One must say that such a god created everything such that to all tests, it seems old and life seems to have evolved. This must have been done with such incredible detail that any god doing this must want us to believe we evolved. This conflicts with Romans 1:20, however, so if this god is God, then Paul's words are not inerrant. If you believe doctrinally that Paul's words must be inerrant, then this god cannot be God.

This is a particular problem for anyone that considers Ellen G. White to have been a prophet. She writes in Education on page 130:

"...shall we, for the privilege of tracing our descent from germs and mollusks and apes, consent to cast away that statement of Holy Writ, so grand in its simplicity, "God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him"? Genesis 1:27. Shall we reject that genealogical record,--prouder than any treasured in the courts of kings,--"which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God"? Luke 3:38."

If evolution happened, then Ellen G. White was wrong and not a prophet (Deuteronomy 18:22).

The evidence that Jesus is still dead starts with the observation that nobody whose death can be verified has risen from the grave. When we test, dead people, without exception, remain dead. We do have evidence that people tell stories that aren't accurate. Without some other evidence of God, it is infinitely more likely that the story is untrue than Jesus rose from the dead and I have seen no other credible evidence for God's existence.

Mariana, who do you believe Jesus was? Do you believe that Jesus was a historical figure?

It is obvious that people don't just come back from the dead. But what if Jesus is not just any regular human being. I have studied on the resurrection of Jesus and came to the conclusion that He is risen! How do I know? I will only answer if you want to know.

I think there was a historical Jesus, but the gospels are based almost entirely on legend. I'll give you an extremely brief summary of why I think that way.

First, all four gospels and Acts were written in Greek, which means that they probably originated from gentile churches that Paul
founded. Paul had no firsthand knowledge of the life of Jesus, gaining what he himself called the gospel in a vision (see Galatians 1:12 and Second Corinthians 12:1-4). From his letters, we know that he had limited contact with the original apostles and, indeed, serious
disagreements with them, particularly James, the leader of the Jerusalem Church. Thus, the gentile churches of Paul had relatively
little contact with members of the Jerusalem Church who had the story firsthand and what little contact they did have ceased entirely in 70 CE with the destruction of Jerusalem. The gospels and Acts, then, were most likely written after Paul's death and the Jerusalem Church had ceased to exist. Acts as history is dubious since, despite the tradition that the author was Paul's traveling companion, Luke, it gets a number of details wrong that are present in Paul's letters (compare, for example, Galatians 1:13-24 with Acts 9:8-28). The
gospels themselves disagree with each other and Paul on details of the early Church as well. They don't even agree on the names of the apostles and the only Apostle James that Paul seems to be acquainted with is Jesus' brother, who isn't listed among the apostles in any of the gospels. I see no reason to even think that the Jerusalem Church believed in Jesus' resurrection or divinity, since those ideas appear to have originated with Paul's vision and, after 70 CE, Paul's churches were the only ones left. Paul wasn't particularly interested in the life of Jesus (he never mentioned it), but the other members of the churches were. I think they just pieced together stories they'd heard with the theology of Paul.

So, what drove you to the conclusion that the gospels are true, at least to the extent that Jesus is the risen Lord?

My Dear sister Mariana,

Apart from scripture and historical fact, why do you have such a problem with the veracity of Christianity? All of us have certainly felt the calming presence of the Holy Spirit, or had our earnest prayers answered at one time or another in our lives. Have you been let down by a church member that you used to look highly upon? Have you lost a loved one so near and dear to you that you are unable to forgive GOD for allowing such a thing to happen? Have you been a victim of a violent crime and feel betrayed by a GOD that would let such a thing happen? Have you been forced to attend church never making the stand for your self and then were unable to defend your faith when it was first challenged? Or have you never known Our Blessed LORD and Saviour and you seek to find the peace that Christians are always referencing? Whichever the case, in your long studies of both history and scripture you have missed the mark. For you have found the word but missed JESUS.

If JESUS is not the risen Lord and our Saviour then why persist in debate? If Jesus has not risen from the dead then why waste your time debating it with folks that just don't get it? Are you trying to enlighten we who believe that JESUS is our Christ, the risen Saviour? Or have you instead been led here by the Holy Spirit and given another chance to accept and follow JESUS who loves you more than anyone ever has or ever will. I don't think there is any one thing that we can say that you won't try to refute. I do not have an affidavit signed by JESUS or a heavenly artifact dropped by a Gaurdian Angel that says made in Heaven. What I do have, or what every follower of Christ has, is a plethora of experiences both pleasant and pernicious that have led us closer to Jesus because we have chosen to accept HIM.

We do not serve HIM our of fear or consequences, but instead because we have read of HIS love in the synoptic gospels; or because we have heard the gospel preached by others that have a relationship with HIM. We accept HIS words and the account in the Bible to be true. We seek HIM in our daily lives and find comfort in HIS promises. That is why we follow JESUS.

Do you believe in anything that you cannot see with your eyes? Do you believe in angels, spirits, santa, ghosts, or demons? Is your issue with believing in something that you cannot see, or is it with Christianity itself? We love you Sister Mariana. While you are in our company we will do our best to ensure that you see JESUS if not in HIS Word, then reflected in our characters , our conversation, and in our deeds.

Happy Sabbath.

@Mariana:
Ellen White isn't wrong on evolution, in my opinion.
"One must say that such a god created everything such that to all tests, it seems old and life seems to have evolved. This must have been done with such incredible detail that any god doing this must want us to believe we evolved. This conflicts with Romans 1:20, however, so if this god is God, then Paul's words are not inerrant."

I don't think it was His intention. However, it is an inevitable thing when we can't go back in time to actually see what was set in motion when He spoke the creation commands. Because God's word brought the first creatures into existence instantaneously with all possible potential variations of genetic sequencing, it most definitely would appear as evolution, because there's absolutely no way to tell if there was a temporal (time) contraction. Time is the most sticky thing to prove if it's been altered. It's why it belongs in the realm of sci-fi; lots of speculation.

The movie, Clockstoppers, actually brought up a good example of this. In that movie, a guy had been "stopping" time so often that he aged faster. The problem was that while time "stopped", he was still aging at "normal" human rate, albeit in hypertime. But when he wasn't in hypertime, his "normal aging rate" matched with normal time. But under testing, every single test would have indicated he was a lot older than he actually was.

That's the weakness of macro-evolution. It can't prove or disprove beyond reasonable doubt if there was something going on with time within the "normal progression of time we know as 24 hours". But to those of who believe in the mighty power of God, this inability to prove if there was confined-time-contraction can be a source of great faith that God can save us from sin, which to many, can seem so insurmountable.

The entire Bible is not meant to focus on how our species and others got to where they are now in genetics. It is a compilation of history of God's dealings with real, frail humans, to reveal His wisdom and great love for those who are willing to seek His face. In this big picture, the account of Genesis was not put there to debate our origins, but to reveal what happened to the human race. There's a reason why the creation account was so short (2.5 chapters). The rest was focused on the failings of Adam and Eve, the killing of Abel, the hubris of humans thinking they could build all the way to heaven, the betrayal of Abraham with Pharaoh and Sarah, etc.

Undoubtedly, by focusing on small details without keeping in view God's intention of letting it get put there in the first place, the main purpose of the Bible being available to us is thrown out the window. Look at what it's become. Christians become scoffers at scientists who believe in evolution, forgetting that Christ never approached His critics with such lack of tact. Scientists who believe in evolution become skeptics on the validity of Christianity having any real good after seeing the hypocrisy in Christians.

'Apart from scripture and historical fact, why do you have such a problem with the veracity of Christianity?"

Apart from scripture and historical fact, I don't. I don't have a philosophical problem with Christianity or Christians, but Christianity is historically and objectively false. You feeling the Holy Spirit is no more proof of Its existence than feeling a presence in a dark room proves that there's a ghost. When your prayers are answered, are they things that might have happened anyway? Can you change the odds of something happening by praying? Try flipping a coin a hundred times while praying for "heads". Is it different when you're not praying? If not, what does Matthew 17:20 mean?

I'm not angry at the Church, Christians, Christianity, or God. I simply realized that whenever a truth-claim of Christianity is testable, it fails. If we're voting on whether Christianity should be true, then I vote "yes". A clear moral pathway set by an omniscient planner followed by eternal life? What's not to like? It's just not true. Any Christianity that also matches reality isn't biblical. If it's not biblical, what's the foundation?

"Have you [... many disappointing experiences ...]? Whichever the case, in your long studies of both history and scripture you have missed the mark. For you have found the word but missed JESUS."

None of the above. My disbelief in God in exactly the same (I expect, anyway...) as your lack of belief in Zeus. Do you disbelieve in Zeus because a pagan let you down? Or because someone died and you were angry that Zeus let such a terrible thing happen? Or do you instead follow your own logic and believe in EVERY god that has ever been sincerely worshiped? Contrary to your assertion, I think that my studies exactly hit the mark. I learned that all religions, superstitions and supernatural beliefs are cut from the same cloth. All claim to be true, but fail when tested. I'm not angry at God any more than I'm angry at black cats for making me unlucky or at Poseidon for sending tsunamis.

"If JESUS is not the risen Lord and our Saviour then why persist in debate?"

I usually don't because, as you rightly point out, it usually doesn't work. I came across this site because I was going through different SDA-affiliated sites looking for free copies of Ellen G. White material (like "Steps to Christ", which I found) for a friend. The combination of arrogance and ignorance in the strange antievolution post pushed my buttons enough that I wrote a response. Since someone sincerely replied and I had, in a way, "started it", I continued. While most Christians actively avoid hearing or reading anything that upsets their view of reality, some have simply had no information about either science or Christianity that didn't come from Christian apologetics. That might have been the case here.

"Do you believe in anything that you cannot see with your eyes?"

If you're asking if I believe in anything without objective evidence, then no. I believe in radio waves and cosmic rays, for example, and even ephemeral concepts like love and generosity because their effects can be objectively inferred. I don't, however, believe in angels, spirits, Santa, ghosts, demons, gods, devils, ghosts, fairies, leprechauns, djinni, yeti, bigfoot, alien abductions, homeopathy or John Frum. Since you obviously believe in some of these and, presumably, not others, how do you discern between things exist without evidence?

"That's the weakness of macro-evolution. It can't prove or disprove beyond reasonable doubt if there was something going on with time within the "normal progression of time we know as 24 hours"."

It is certainly beyond "reasonable" doubt that your time thing happened. When the best argument against a scientific concept involves magic, I don't think doubt is particularly reasonable. If there's no way to tell if something happened, then there's no reason to even think that it happened. Whenever my car starts, it might be invisible gremlins pushing the pistons around. I could construct a "theory of gremlins" that is utterly impossible to disprove. It is, however, false beyond any reasonable doubt and not worthy of consideration alongside internal combustion. Internal combustion and macroevolution are both testable and possible to disprove in principle; neither one has been disproved and both have quite an array of supporting evidence.

"The entire Bible is not meant to focus on how our species and others got to where they are now in genetics."

If you believe that the Bible is compatible with genetics, then there's no problem; evolution doesn't disprove that particular view of the Bible. In fact, there are many Christians that reconcile their belief in the Bible by accepting that it is not inerrant, but yet is inspired. In doing so, you can come up with a Christianity that is devoid of any testable truth-claims and so is not disprovable. Such a Christianity, though, is just invisible gremlins.

"Scientists who believe in evolution become skeptics on the validity of Christianity having any real good after seeing the hypocrisy in Christians."

Again, this has nothing to do with Christian hypocrisy or whether belief in Christianity is somehow "good". In order for Christianity to be true, improbable things must be true. Some of those things are as improbable as the existence of leprechauns.

@ Mariana...
9.The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of satan, with all power, signs and lying wonders.
10. And with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the
truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this reason GOD will send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should BELIEVE THE LIE.
2 Thes 2: 9-11

You have been running a mock on this thread as though you know that which you speak.

The Lord God, Jesus Christ, The Holy Spirit and the Bible are all spiritual. So to understand them you have to
be spiritual. That involves believing in that which you do not see, for that is the KEY... BELIEVING IN THAT WHICH YOU DO NOT SEE.

Since you believe in your ways so much, I have but one question then I will proceed on for I do not offer that which is HOLY to the dogs, neither do I cast my PEARLS at the pigs, lest they trample on them underfoot and attack me...so

What if everything you have tried to discredit is true?

At the risk of trampling your PEARLS or doing whatever it is that dogs do to what's HOLY...

"You have been running a mock on this thread as though you know that which you speak."

Which part of what I wrote was incorrect? And the phrase you want is "running amok."

"BELIEVING IN THAT WHICH YOU DO NOT SEE."

What is it with the CAPS LOCK around here?

"What if everything you have tried to discredit is true?"

Then laying of hands will begin to heal the sick (James 5:13-15) and there will be a bunch of unemployed doctors.

"If you're asking if I believe in anything without objective evidence, then no. I believe in radio waves and cosmic rays, for example, and even ephemeral concepts like love and generosity because their effects can be objectively inferred. I don't, however, believe in angels, spirits, Santa, ghosts, demons, gods, devils, ghosts, fairies, leprechauns, djinni, yeti, bigfoot, alien abductions, homeopathy or John Frum. Since you obviously believe in some of these and, presumably, not others, how do you discern between things exist without evidence?"

@Mariana:
But how do you know there's no evidence? How do you answer to miracles that happen? Mariana, the problem with your stance as it is, is that even if someone's head got blown off by an RPG right in front of you, and by divine intervention his head grows back unbloodied and all his memories and character intact, you wouldn't believe. You would try to see if there was something in his blood that vastly spiked regeneration, or that you imagined it. You wouldn't be looking for evidence of God. But I did note this: you still believe in love and generosity. But why is it so hard to believe that there is a source to love and generosity? The embodiment of those two things?

"It is certainly beyond "reasonable" doubt that your time thing happened. When the best argument against a scientific concept involves magic, I don't think doubt is particularly reasonable. If there's no way to tell if something happened, then there's no reason to even think that it happened. Whenever my car starts, it might be invisible gremlins pushing the pistons around. I could construct a "theory of gremlins" that is utterly impossible to disprove. It is, however, false beyond any reasonable doubt and not worthy of consideration alongside internal combustion. Internal combustion and macroevolution are both testable and possible to disprove in principle; neither one has been disproved and both have quite an array of supporting evidence."

So how do we tell if there was macro-evolution? How do we tell if there was a Big Bang? Macro-evolution is based on assumptions. The Big Bang is based on assumptions. If we can't tangibly test macro-evolution going on, how can we be sure it's even worthy of consideration? Even the Big Bang is full of guesses. It's just that the Big Bang theory in textbooks is the more logical model they have currently.

But let me ask this: Have scientists of this day and age even bothered to think up ways to test if God exists? Do they even want to be able to in the first place? If you could, would you want to be able to test if God exists?

I'm sure you've heard, "If there's a will, there's a way." If science is touted as being such a wonderful thing, would it not be better and more noble to be able to think up of a way to test if God, who is love incarnate, exists? Whoever is able to deserves to win the Nobel Peace Prize more than a gazillion times. Because if that person is able to, no one will be at each other, and peace would reign for eternity.

If you could suspend disbelief for some time (sci-fi fans do it all the time), and let's say there really is a God who loves much deeper than we can comprehend and who wants to deliver you from every single trouble. Would you event want to test if He exists if there was a method that could do so?

"Mariana, the problem with your stance as it is, is that even if someone's head got blown off by an RPG right in front of you, and by divine intervention his head grows back unbloodied and all his memories and character intact, you wouldn't believe."

Why would you think that? It is certainly more likely that I could be fooled than for someone's exploded head to regrow, but if it could be replicated under controlled conditions with no evident, natural explanation, then I would ultimately believe in the supernatural. It's not that I can't be convinced that supernatural things exist, it's that they always seem to appear in low-light conditions around cameras that don't focus properly. Do you know of any miracles that fit the bill? I don't.

"But why is it so hard to believe that there is a source to love and generosity? The embodiment of those two things?"

Love is real because it's a property of human beings. There doesn't need to be an embodiment of all love any more than there need to be embodiments of all toothaches or spelling errors.

"Macro-evolution is based on assumptions. The Big Bang is based on assumptions."

I see the "assumptions" thing quite a bit in creationist rhetoric. The only thing I can figure is that it's supposed to counter the creationist "assumption" that the Bible is true, but it gets used in different situations to mean different things. It's pervasive, though, so I'll try to address the ones that I know about. If you mean something different, let me know.

First, there's the grand use of "assumption" to mean that there's something that in principle isn't provable, so scientific truth is impossible on a philosophical level, like saying that it's an unproven assumption that empirical evidence is useful. The response to that is simply to point out that not only does it work, but based on the results, it's the most accurate and efficient method yet devised for vetting the truth or falseness of ideas. Smallpox resisted the most fervent and earnest of prayers for millennia. The scientific method produced a vaccine that wiped it out in a generation.

I've also seen creationists claim that certain knowledge is "assumption" if it's required to draw the conclusion, but isn't demonstrated at the moment. This shows up most often with things like radiometric dating where it's an "assumption" that radioactive materials used in radiometric dating decay at a constant rate. In these cases, the "assumption" in question has usually been demonstrated sufficiently beforehand (as it has with constant radioactive decay). Even if it weren't, though, and really were an assumption in the proper sense, it's still subject to scientific falsification. If someone were to determine that radioactive decay rates change under the same conditions where they were previously thought to be constant, then previous results would be invalidated. In the case of radioactive decay, though, that would also require a rewrite of quantum mechanics.

I'm not sure what assumptions you are claiming for macroevolution or the Big Bang, though, so if they don't fall under one of those categories, let me know.

"If we can't tangibly test macro-evolution going on, how can we be sure it's even worthy of consideration?"

We can, have, and continue to do so. Macroevolution both requires and is the only reasonable explanation for certain genetic patterns that we see between all organisms. If we ever find an organism that doesn't fit the pattern, macroevolution is wrong, pure and simple. Every time a lab sequences the genome (or even part of one) of a different organism, macroevolution is tested again. The genetic patterns match the physical patterns. For example, mice and rats are very similar genetically, even though there's no real reason that they should be if they were created separately as creationists assert. It's even better than that, though. Since one might argue that physically similar organisms would be genetically similar anyway, then we have to check the pattern of differences as well. We also find differences where creationists shouldn't expect them, but that are explained only by macroevolution and common descent. The really cool thing is that you (and any other creationists) can check this yourself! This takes a little explaining, so please bear with me.

There's a protein that's required for cellular respiration in all eukaryotes. For this discussion, the important thing is that eukaryotes include all fungi, plants and animals, but exclude bacteria. This protein, cytochrome c, does exactly the same thing in all organisms. You could, for example, replace our cytochrome c with that from a yeast and everything would keep on working. If an organism mutates such that its cytochrome c works differently, then it dies. Extremely rarely, though, its sequence changes, but it keeps doing the same thing. The funny thing is that you can count the number of changes; things that macroevolution predicts are closely related have few differences while things that are distantly related have more differences. If creationists were right, then every organism should have the same cytochrome c with enough differences to account for 6000 years (which is very close to zero, actually). The cool thing is that any DNA sequence that's paid for with a government grant (which is most of them) ends up in a database that's searchable on the internet at www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Genbank/. Here are the cytochrome c sequences for several organisms. Each letter corresponds to a different amino acid (I found a chart at www.cbs.dtu.dk/courses/27619/codon.html). The table will probably wrap in the blog comments, but if you copy and paste it into Notepad or something, it should be easier to see.

Human: mgdvekgkki fimkcsqcht vekggkhktg pnlhglfgrk tgqapgysyt aanknkgiiw gedtlmeyle npkkyipgtk mifvgikkke eradliaylk katne
Chimpanzee: mgdvekgkki fimkcsqcht vekggkhktg pnlhglfgrk tgqapgysyt aanknkgiiw gedtlmeyle npkkyipgtk mifvgikkke eradliaylk katne
Squirrel
monkey: mgdvekgkri fiqkcsqcht vekggkhktg pnlhglfgrk tgqaagftyt eanknkgiiw gedtlmeyle npkkyipgtk mifvgikkkg eredliaylk katne
Norway rat: mgdvekgkki fvqkcaqcht vekggkhktg pnlhglfgrk tgqaagfsyt danknkgitw gedtlmeyle npkkyipgtk mifagikkkg eradliaylk katne
Mouse: mgdvekgkki fvqkcaqcht vekggkhktg pnlhglfgrk tgqaagfsyt danknkgitw gedtlmeyle npkkyipgtk mifagikkkg eradliaylk katne
Chicken: mgdiekgkki fvqkcsqcht vekggkhktg pnlhglfgrk tgqaegfsyt danknkgitw gedtlmeyle npkkyipgtk mifagikkks ervdliaylk datsk
Bullfrog: mgdvekgkki fvqkcaqcht cekggkhkvg pnlygligrk tgqaagfsyt danknkgitw nedtlmeyle npkkyipgtk mifagikkqg erkdliaylk sacsc
Pike: mgdiakgkka fvqkcaqcht veeggkhkvg pnlwglfgrk tgqapgfsyt dankskgitw sedtlmeyle npkkyipgtk mifagikkkg erqdliaylk sats
Smelt: mgdinkgkka fvqkcaqcht vedggkhkvg pnlwglfgrk tgqaegysyt dankakgivw dtntlmtyle npkkyipgtk mifagikkkg ertdlvaylk sats
Fruit fly: mgvpagdvek gkklfvqrca qchtveaggk hkvgpnlhgl igrktgqaag faytdankak gitwnedtlf eylenpkkyi pgtkmifagl kkpnergdli aylksatk
Mosquito: mgipagdvek gkklfvqrcs qchtveaggk hkvgpnlhgi fgrktgqaag fsytdankak gitwsedtlf eylenpkkyi pgtkmifagl kkpneradli aylkssta

This list is ordered with those most closely related to us at the top and those least related at the bottom. Note how changes accumulate the farther away we move evolutionarily from humans. Note also, the four-acid insertion early in the insect sequence, shifting the rest of the sequence out four. Remember that each of these proteins does exactly the same thing, so creationists have no reason for them to be different in the first place and especially no reason for the differences to match evolutionary distance.

"Have scientists of this day and age even bothered to think up ways to test if God exists?"

Yes. The results are negative and Christians come up with excuses why. In 2006, scientists conducted a trial of intercessory prayer on cardiac patients in the largest study of the kind ever performed. Their conclusion speaks for itself: "Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from [coronary artery bypass graft surgery], but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications." Prayer didn't help, but knowing you were prayed for made you do worse. In fact, there are tons of things you can do to test for the Christian God's existence. If you think the Bible should be inerrant, try putting peeled branches in front of mating goats to see if it changes their coat color (Genesis 30:37-43). It's not that nobody's come up with any tests, it's that nobody's come up with tests with positive results.

"Would you event want to test if He exists if there was a method that could do so?"

Of course.

Yeesh. That table turned out worse than I thought. Copy-and-paste the lines into a fullscreen Notepad and line up the first letter of each amino acid sequence. It's a little work, but it's worth it.

@Mariana
Um, something bothers me here at the end of your 2nd last post. "Note how changes accumulate the farther away we move evolutionarily from humans." I wasn't thinking about this when I said assumption, but this looks like one. How come it's assumed that we're related to the other animals and insects? I mean, sure cytochrome c is needed in almost everything living, but in what way does it mean that there's evolutionary relation?

Just based on the data gathered, how come the first explanation is relationship via evolution? Now, that's the only weakness of science. Evolution is the absolute best (I believe) explanation possible from strictly using the scientific method. See, a creationist wouldn't have to assume that the the similarities in the genome mean relations via evolution. But from just the scientific method and logical reasoning based on what has been seen in the past, evolution is the best answer.

But that's what happened in the past as well. Before it was discovered the earth revolved around the sun, and not the other way around, people could only scientifically deduce that the sun went round the earth. They used what they had, to the best of their knowledge. And the answer they got was just that. But did that make them right? Eventually the guy found out some way of finding out, thus disproving the previously held claim.

As for the tests the scientists did with intercessory prayer, it's a common failing even among Christians today. They assumed that if there really was a God, He would answer favourably to the intercessory prayers. God doesn't answer to the whims of people as they like it. It's the frustrating thing even for devoted Christians. The scientists assumed that it was in the person's best interests to be healed. God doesn't view it like that. What the scientists neglected is that God saw the needs of those people.

Healing is assumed to be for the person's best interest. But as an Adventist, I know there's more to it than that. If God were to heal willy nilly every single person on earth (and He most definitely wants to), no one would care at all for their bodies. Just rub the magic lamp of prayer and presto. Does a parent give everything the child feels is good? Or does the parent know that it's not in the best interest of the child to sniff glue even though it smells nice?

As for the mating goats, not everything the Bible says happened can be replicated by using scientific testing. Knock on a rock so water would gush out? Keep pouring oil from 100mL jar into lots of 10L jars until you can't anymore? There's a reason why they're called miracles. It's inadequate to use the "a car running in the 1200s would look like magic" explanation in those instances, because nothing on earth can cause the sun to go back several minutes. Nothing on earth could make a 100mL jar fill up more than 1000L worth of oil. But it's not counted in if you don't believe the Bible is accurate. Therefore, I'll share my own.

Something simple from my own experience: A few years back, I was studying in Indiana. One day 25+ twisters touched down all over the state. One just barely missed the edges of the city I was staying in.

Another day, I started cycling back from the library when a huge onslaught of rain came. I prayed urgently to God to protect my Bible (sentimental value) since my bag wasn't waterproof. I got soaked thoroughly, and I thought my Bible was a goner. Then I heard a voice in my ear/head (kinda both) saying, "Do you trust me? Will you do what I tell you to no matter how ridiculous it might seem?" Well at that time, I thought, "Nothing to lose, By now everything in my bag is drenched." So I replied thinking, "Ok." "Do you see that tree beside the fire station? Wait under it." Now God calling it a tree felt ridiculous. It was the middle of Fall, so there was hardly any green left on it, and furthermore it was only half a foot taller than me. I did my best to "wait under" it though it was a bit hard with few twigs. I looked up at the sky and asked God, "Now what?" Less than 10 seconds after I said that, complete silence except the cars.

The rain had stopped completely; not even a tiny drizzle. It was like it just got erased abruptly; it wasn't gradually stopping. I cycled back to the apartment and when I got near the porch, it drizzled very slightly. The instant (I remember clearly) my rear wheel got onto the porch, the heavens unleashed their fury (metaphor, but you get the idea- it was an intense thunderstorm). I was stunned, but I quickly checked my Bible. It was completely untouched by the rain and my bag was only damp on the outside; the opposite happened to me, I looked like I got dunked in a swimming pool.

Another time, I was eating at subway when I got a papercut. I knew I got it because it hurt like ..... (ahem) and I was bleeding. I said a quick prayer and tried to forget it. But when we continued shopping, I noticed it didn't hurt anymore. I looked at all my fingers (in case I remembered wrongly) but not even a scab was visible; no trace of any lacerations.

The U.S. history test I had forgotten because I was up late discussing matters of doctrine at a forum came as a shock. I said a quick prayer but panicked. I begged, "Lord, please please please don't let me fail this one. You know I already suck at U.S. history, remembering all the dates and names, but please show mercy... help!?" It kinda sounds funny now, but back then I hyperventilated. The next day I thought I flunked it, but I was pleasantly surprised that I got a high 'A'. I didn't study and when I took the test I blanked on a lot of the questions.

I hope you understand, Mariana, why it's difficult for me to accept skepticism of miracles when they have happened to me before, and these happened more prominently when I had newly converted in heart to the religion I baptized into years ago. I've even had dreams that answered my prayers. One of which answered my mother's greatest worry if my grandmother was going to die from her multiple strokes. That dream came true and she is slowly recovering.

Science is a great thing. But science expects too much that the spiritual world conforms to the same constants and observed patterns of the physical. God doesn't answer prayer for a group of people just so scientists can satisfy their question as to whether He exists or not.

I can't expect you to understand this, but I've experienced the thrill of scientific experimentation and know it's a bad life to lead in the long-run. Science isn't bad, but it leaves you drained. Thinking up of possible methods to ascertain the validity of a hypothesis and avert any possible confounding factors. But with discovering links of truth in the Bible, I get the thrill I got from biology class, but it doesn't leave me drained. Instead I'm energized and thirsty for more. Sometimes I get so excited that God stops me from thinking even deeper on it; to take a breather before continuing.

And this is just me, a layman. Our missionaries have experienced miracles more often and even more impressive ones than can be compared to mine.

"It's not that I can't be convinced that supernatural things exist, it's that they always seem to appear in low-light conditions around cameras that don't focus properly. Do you know of any miracles that fit the bill? I don't."

It's a very valid question, and I just touched on it. I'd like to ask in return: How exactly would God's cause be glorified and magnified by being published in a scientific journal?

This is for those atheists out there.
An atheist school teacher told her class one day that there is no God. She was going to prove that to her class that day.
She called four students to stand up front and asked them: "Did you see God today?" Each one took turns answering that, no they had never seen God. Then the school teacher answered triumphantly: "See class? There is no God!"
Then a Christian student asked the class: "Hey guys, have you ever seen the teacher's brain?" Of course the answer was no!
Then the student said: "See class? Our teacher has no brain!"

"How come it's assumed that we're related to the other animals and insects?"

First, it's not assumed. The original evolutionary trees were developed using what's called "cladistics." Instead of comparing genes, physical attributes are used. Organisms with more similarities diverged from each other more recently than those with fewer similarities. That's what I meant in the previous post when I said that the genetic patterns match the physical ones. Second, it's not an assumption in this case either, because it's part of the hypothesis. The question is whether genetic relationships match cladistic ones. They do. If the patterns didn't match, the hypothesis would have been falsified. In addition, other patterns don't emerge. The genetic comparisons don't match an ordering by size, for example, or supposed day of creation.

"I mean, sure cytochrome c is needed in almost everything living, but in what way does it mean that there's evolutionary relation?"

When we build a map of organisms based on genetic distances (whether from individual genes or large swaths of DNA), the resulting tree matches a tree generated from cladistic relationships. A common creationist objection is that the genetic similarities are because of the physical similarities, rather than the other way around (that is, organisms that were created to be similar have similar genetics). The reason that cytochrome c is interesting is because the function of cytochrome c is always the same, so by the logic of the creationist objection, should be identical (this would, in fact, be evidence of common design rather than common descent).

"See, a creationist wouldn't have to assume that the the similarities in the genome mean relations via evolution. But from just the scientific method and logical reasoning based on what has been seen in the past, evolution is the best answer."

I don't have to assume that they do, either; I can make up whatever answer I want. Evolution, though, is the only answer that actually matches the evidence.

"Eventually the guy found out some way of finding out, thus disproving the previously held claim."

Exactly. Genetic sequencing had the potential to completely disprove evolution. Some creationists (Answers in Genesis, for example) predicted exactly that. Instead, genetic sequencing continues to confirm the evolutionary relationships beyond any rational doubt.

"They assumed that if there really was a God, He would answer favourably to the intercessory prayers. God doesn't answer to the whims of people as they like it."

Matthew 17:20 says that He will, though.

All I have to say about your miracle stories is that a sufficient explanation for all of them is a combination of coincidence, wishful thinking and confirmation bias. You mention later that the chore of averting confounding explanations leaves you drained. I certainly understand the feeling, but it seems the only way we have to know what's true. Have you asked God to stop rain and He hasn't? If rain stopping when you ask is evidence that He exists, is the rain not stopping evidence that He doesn't? Answering anything other than "yes" is the very definition of confirmation bias.

"How exactly would God's cause be glorified and magnified by being published in a scientific journal?"

If God's desire is that none should perish, I would expect that might help.

Tom:

"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Have a nice trip.

@Mariana:
Ok, I understand your explanation of cladistics, I think. But why does similarity have to mean that we're genetically related? Just looking at the data, it could be interpreted differently. Just from the data, you just get proportions. An additional element or lack thereof in the genetic makeup leading to different size and physical look. But in order for the data to fit the hypothesis of evolution, it has to be treated in a linear/series (like lighting) manner instead of being strictly in a pattern/parallel (lighting) form.

But I do understand why the linear approach was taken. The original intent was to find out, in biological makeup, how our species came to exist. If they were to treat the data strictly just as it appears (a proportional pattern-more material or less, resulting in a proportionately different dimensions and appearance), it would not have answered the hypothesis; it would have left the origin of our species unanswered.

Everyone has a curiosity to know how we came to exist. Even now, we want to be able to explain what exactly makes up our individual personality/consciousness. Science can't properly explain it because all it can test is the flesh. Behavioral science only observes patterns in personality, but it can't explain why there's individuality/uniqueness. Therefore, at the start of testing out if Darwin's ideas were right, the intent would already have biased how the results would be interpreted.

However, I do want to make clear that I don't belittle what evolutionists have done. They have been great people, advancing our civilization's understanding of genetics to help deal with genetic disorders, better medicine, etc. The thing is, Mariana, both my interpretation of the data (proportion) and evolutionists' interpretation will fit in the cause of betterment in understanding what makes our genes tick and how we can make life on earth better. The only difference is interpretation; but the results will be the same, or at least very similar.

{"They assumed that if there really was a God, He would answer favourably to the intercessory prayers. God doesn't answer to the whims of people as they like it."

Matthew 17:20 says that He will, though.}

That's not all Jesus said. [Mat 6:10] "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."
[Mat 26:42] "He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done."

Jesus did not expect every prayer of His to be answered in the exact manner He asked. Every prayer of His was in subjection to the will of the Father. Nevertheless, because He lived in perfect harmony with the will of the Father, His prayers would be answered because He knew what kind of prayer would be answered. This is how we are to pray. We petition what we want to God, but be in an attitude of submission. That He knows best, that His will be done.


[1 Jn 5:14-15] "This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him."

Furthermore, the point of Mat 17:20 was that when we petition to God, we don't make half-assed (pardon this usage, but it's appropriate) appeals. When we pray, we pray in submission to God's will, and in faith that if our prayers will work out for the good of the person we're praying for in the big picture, it will be answered. Whether it is answered the way we want it to be or not, He knows what's best and won't let things spiral out of control.

As for your critique of the miracles that happened in my life, I do agree that looking at each one by themselves speaks of coincidence and wishful thinking. But there was more to this that convinced me. The miracles (a lot more happened, but not as big as the ones I mentioned) that happened to me happened on a daily basis only when I was in America. That was when I met God. The miracles were only at a high rate when I was in accordance to His will, that is, drawing closer in a loving relationship with Him. But when I returned to my home country, I got caught up in the business of life here. God then started taking second-place and the miracles went to obvious lows. Then when my relationship with God started getting better, the miracles ramped up again. But then I neglected, and the daily miracles trickled to almost non-existence.

The miracles weren't what convinced me of God's existence. What convinced me was that when I drew near to God, I was changed. And when I was changed, everything bad that happened to me got mellowed out and the good got more refreshing. The most convincing, though, was the miracle of Bible study. I understood concepts from Bible study that I had not thought of before. No other kids I knew could understand my interest in it. What was boring to me at first had started to become brilliant rays of happiness in my life.

["How exactly would God's cause be glorified and magnified by being published in a scientific journal?"

If God's desire is that none should perish, I would expect that might help.]

Actually, it wouldn't. The very strength of science is weakness to God's cause. Science encourages a thorough investigation into anything and everything. But with the Bible, scrutinizing on small details have been detrimental to well-meaning individuals. Because the scrutiny pre-occupies the mind so much so that God is easily forgotten.

God's cause would be impeded if miracles were scrutinized, because that's not how He has chosen to touch humanity's heart. Satan can and will show great miracles and wonders to distract people from what God really wants for humanity. It's not a temporary healing that God wants, but a healing of mind and character. He wants restoration in us. That can only be done by the Word of God, not by physical healings.

There are times when it would be terrible if He healed the individual. The change of heart He wishes for the individual may not come about.

@ Sister Mariana

Zeus did not let me down. You infer that I believe in imaginary creatures and smugly instruct others on the virtues of using notepad showing that you indeed feel better than those that believe in Jesus.

We as human beings know there is a GOD but some exercise free will and choose whether or not to acknowledge Him. People who do not believe in Christ and ridicule Him still stay away from the opposite extreme as devil worship and satanism. If you do not believe in Christ then why not move into a known hunted house? Why not take part of satanic worship and allow evil spirits to take over your body? Why not burn the Bible and denounce the Lord in a church? The reason why is that you know that Satan is real and evil spirits are real and you choose to avoid them lest you fall prey to them. You reject Jesus because He is merciful and does not visit immediate retribution upon you, but instead gives us all numerous chances to come to Him. You see His patience as weakness, but refuse to do the same towards evil spirits and Satan because you know and are fearful of the consequences. ((Acts 19:13-17) There is much proof of ghosts, and evil spirits, and demon possession, however you do not see fit to challenge these phenomenon in person. It is much easier to challenge God from the comfort of your keyboard in relative anonymity.

In the same way we know that someone is attracted to us, or know that the person staring at us from across the room might be unbalanced and may do us harm, we can feel God, goodness, evil, or bad vibes from a person. There is no litmus test for these feelings however we accept them without proof. Refusing GOD is not due to lack of feeling but lack of willingness to acknowledge someone larger than us, yielding our sovereignty to someone else. That is why you do not believe in Christ. It is more gratifying to feel in charge of life than it is to accept that in submitting to an invisible GOD and being subject to His laws we are at our best and experience joy.

I pray that you don't outsmart us all and yourself and arise at Christ"s third coming with all answers to every argument yet standing outside New Jerusalem.

You might want to make the video available through Netflix, Blockbuster, and Redbox, etc... . I'd also suggest trying to get it into the public libraries. I'd like to see it ( so would my family ), but I just can't afford it right now.
I posted one of your banners advertising the DVD at my blog, hope it helps.

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you.

Matthew -

"But why does similarity have to mean that we're genetically related? Just looking at the data, it could be interpreted differently. Just from the data, you just get proportions."

Similarity itself doesn't; It's the pattern of similarities that means that we're genetically related. Strictly speaking, evolution is both branching and linear and requires patterns that validate both. The linear evolution is seen when a single population changes over time. When a group splits into two, non-interbreeding groups, then as they diverge they will become different enough that they can't interbreed and it is at that point that they are called different species. Even though they change, however, they will retain many of the same characteristics. All mammals, for example, share a unique inner ear structure, mammary glands, and lungs that are unique to mammals. All birds share feathers and specifically avian lungs. If a creature were found with feathers and mammalian lungs, then evolution is wrong. Genetics gives us the same patterns in much greater detail. No primates, for example, can manufacture their own vitamin C while nearly all other mammals can. The gene for producing vitamin C has been identified and all primates show the same mutation in the same gene that is responsible for the defect. The probability of all separate primate kinds (to use creationist parlance) exhibiting an identical mutation without having inherited it from a common source is remote. It's not just that primates share this mutation, but that only primates share this mutation.

"When we pray, we pray in submission to God's will, and in faith that if our prayers will work out for the good of the person we're praying for in the big picture, it will be answered."

Even if your reading is correct, there should still be a pattern that can be detected statistically. If prayer, even indirectly, has material effects, then those effects should stand out in statistical analyses. People have looked for them and, as far as can be determined, they aren't there.

"The miracles were only at a high rate when I was in accordance to His will, that is, drawing closer in a loving relationship with Him."

Science requires statistical analysis because humans are notoriously bad at estimating statistics. Gamblers are convinced that they can see patterns and streaks that can be exploited. Checking the casino's accounting books, however, shows conclusively that such ideas are false. Homeopathic remedies are diluted beyond the statistical possibility of any medicine remaining in the water, yet people swear and write glowing testimonials to its efficacy. Controlled studies, however, show no more effect from homeopathic remedies than from distilled water. I hope you'll understand why, without numbers to back up your anecdotes, your situation looks the same to me.

tdk -

"Zeus did not let me down."

Then why assume that my lack of belief is from a bad experience rather than the weight of evidence?

"You infer that I believe in imaginary creatures..."

I assumed (and still do) that you believe in angels and demons. I assume that you don't believe in leprechauns or fairies. My original question was to ask what criteria you use when deciding which invisible things are real and which are imaginary.

"...and smugly instruct others on the virtues of using notepad..."

I offered it as a suggestion because the blog's software mangled the table I inserted. I assure you, any smugness was due to the implications of the data and had nothing to do with Notepad.

"If you do not believe in Christ then why not move into a known haunted house?"

If I found a house that was cheaper because it was supposed to be haunted, I would.

"Why not take part of satanic worship and allow evil spirits to take over your body?"

I have. Nothing happened.

"Why not burn the Bible..."

I wouldn't burn a Bible any more than I would the Qur'an, Bhagavad Gita or Dianetics. I don't recall ever burning a book to make a point because I like books too much. I suppose if it would make you feel better, though, I could print a few pages from the Bible and burn those. If not, I suppose I could get one of those crappy, dollar store Bibles and burn that. If I do, what should I expect to happen? Aside from smelling like burnt paper and cheap ink, I mean.

"...and denounce the Lord in a church?"

I assume that you mean in a disruptive manner before the congregation. I don't do that because it's impolite. When I go to church, I follow their rules. If you mean at all, then I've certainly denounced the Lord in a church. I've had many conversations in churches where I've denied the existence of God and the divinity of Jesus.

"The reason why is that you know that Satan is real and evil spirits are real and you choose to avoid them lest you fall prey to them."

No. Really. There is no Satan. There is no God. The Holy Spirit is a figment of your imagination. If Jesus ever existed, he is dead forever. Notice how I didn't capitalize "he". I normally do out of convention and respect for those that worship his memory, but I apparently didn't make the point strongly enough that having respect for individuals doesn't mean that I respect their superstitions. There are no spirits, good, evil or indifferent. Possession is impossible because there's nothing out there to do the possessing. Jesus, if he even existed, spent his final breath, thought his last thoughts and wished his last wishes, not to be reborn, but as a testament to the ruthless efficiency of Roman Imperial occupation.

"There is much proof of ghosts, and evil spirits, and demon possession..."

Like what? And just for the record, your statement means that I was right in thinking that you believe in imaginary creatures.

"...however you do not see fit to challenge these phenomenon in person."

What makes you think that? After I realized that there were no gods, I realized that the same logic meant that there were no ghosts, spirits or demons. I've gone to cemeteries with those that claim to see ghosts, performed "satanic" rituals as described by Anton LaVey, attempted to summon Sumerian gods and dared people that call themselves witches to produce, well, anything at all. Nothing happened. Ever. There was no magic and there were no possessions. There were certainly no Sumerian gods.

Dear Sister Mariana,

If you have taken part of satanic rituals and nothing occurred then the deception chosen to mislead you by satan is a laissez-faire approach. Embolden the human with a self-assurance that nothing is real and faith of no kind is aroused in the individual. That is worse than twisting love into hate or perverting right belief into skewed belief. A person with no faith in any God is harder to reach -- but not impossible. Their deception is made more sure. I will pray that the HOLY SPIRIT rain down upon your heart Sister M.

Please read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Please read The Great Controversy, Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, Prophets and Kings, and Acts of the Apostles. By reading you will learn more about JESUS and learn why GOD is love and why I and any other Christian have surrendered our lives to HIM. You have certainly read about a great many things and could perhaps do well on Jeopardy. Please read the books I mentioned. They have changed my life and I pray that they help you too.

Best regards and warmest wishes Sister M,

tdk

I just wanted to share with you all some information I found regarding this discussion of CREATION Vs. EVOLUTION.

I have to warn you that this information can be a little complicated for those of you who do NOT have a scientific background, but it IS written in a way that is easy enough for you to understand.

However, it specifically addresses the arguments posted here on this forum.

You can find the information BELOW: (If you can't click on the links, then COPY And PASTE them into your browser.)

(1.) www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/sci-ev/sci_vs_ev_15.htm

(2.) www.evolution-facts.org/Ev-V3/3evlch21.htm

BE SURE TO READ ALL OF THIS INFORMATION. It will be very helpful to your understanding of this issue.

Then, DECIDE FOR YOURSELF what you want to believe...

FORGOT TO MENTION THIS....

For more information about MUTATIONS and the roles they play (played) in genetics and evolution, CLICK ON THE LINKS BELOW:

(1.) www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/sci-ev/sci_vs_ev_10.htm

(2.) www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/sci-ev/sci_vs_ev_10b.htm

(3.) www.evolution-facts.org/Ev-V2/2evlch14a.htm

(4.) www.evolution-facts.org/Ev-V2/2evlch14b.htm


*** Read ALL Of This Information. Don't Just SKIM It. It's IMPORTANT For You To Know WHAT You Believe And WHY You Believe It! ***

"If you have taken part of satanic rituals and nothing occurred then the deception chosen to mislead you by satan is a laissez-faire approach."

What, then, would you accept as evidence that the supernatural doesn't exist? Refusing to consider disconfirming evidence is known as "confirmation bias". Humans are so prone to this that it's the largest hurdle that the sciences have had to overcome. It's why gamblers think they can win.

"Please read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John."

I have done so many times. What am I looking for that I didn't see before? Actually, try reading Paul's letters immediately after reading the gospels. Is salvation by grace or works? Read Galatians after reading The Acts. What did Paul do after having his vision? Try reading the different accounts of Peter's denial from the four gospels back-to-back. To whom, when and where were the three denials made?

"Please read The Great Controversy, Desire of Ages, Patriarchs and Prophets, Prophets and Kings, and Acts of the Apostles."

I've read the first two, as well as several other books by Mrs. White. Again, what am I looking for? I realize that Christianity offers much if it is, in fact, true. The problem is that wishing something were true doesn't make it so.

DAVE -

I started reading the pages you linked to, but have to confess that I stopped. If you have any understanding of evolution at all, it's clear that most of the statements they make are simply untrue. Since the author(s) of the web pages assert that these things are known to be true by scientists, one should be able to verify them by reading the scientific literature. People writing the creationist stuff know that the bulk of their audience will never actually check their facts, so they can say whatever they want. Go to highwire.stanford.edu and search the literature for, for things like "beneficial mutation" or "molecular phylogeny". Heck, you don't even need to do that. Just pick a few statements and search Google.

From the first page you linked to:

"One researcher, *Richard E. Dickerson, wanted to locate the exact point at which humans branched off the family tree. He decided, after comparing lysozyme and lactalbumin, that we are the direct descendants of chickens; for, in this one respect, people are more closely related to chickens than they are to any other kind of living creature."

I looked through Dickerson's work and found papers dealing with lactalbumin, but didn't find any statements like the above. In fact, the only references I found to such a conclusion were in creationist websites that, I suspect, simply copied each other without actually checking to see if it's actually true. It looks rather like the nonexistent Washington Times article mentioned in a previous post.

" The octopus has an eye that is very similar to the one that humans have. In contrast the eyes of fish are totally different from the eyes of an octopus."

Where do they get this stuff? Human and fish eyes are more like each other than either is to an octopus eye, to the point of deriving from different tissues. This means the humans and fish are more closely related, which is borne out by fossil and molecular evidence (fish and humans are both vertebrates; the octopus is a mollusk).

"When certain specific gravity tests were run on the blood of various land animals, it was found that snakes and frogs are more closely related to people than people are to apes and monkeys."

Specific gravity just indicates how much material is dissolved in blood (or anything else; beer makers use specific gravity to determine how much sugar is in the wort). These tests would indicate whether the subject was dehydrated, perhaps, but not genetic relationships.

"The plague (Pasteurella pestis) which killed millions in Europe in the Dark Ages only attacks people and Norway rats."

Pasteurella pestis (now called Yersinia pestis) causes plague in most mammals. The statement is just wrong. It's not even like they misread or misunderstood something; it's just made up. It's like saying that dogs are made of turpentine or that motorcycles run on sesame seeds and love. At least the scientists *try* to be right.

@Mariana: Great talking with you :D It's been interesting. Sorry, haven't checked the board the past few days.

Ok, about the pattern of similarity, I want to ask: How have the scientists been able to observe the divergence recently?

"Even if your reading is correct, there should still be a pattern that can be detected statistically. If prayer, even indirectly, has material effects, then those effects should stand out in statistical analyses. People have looked for them and, as far as can be determined, they aren't there."

Hm, but therein lies the problem, doesn't it? What makes the scientists' assumptions of prayer wrong, is that it is possible to measure it at all. God's answers to prayers are not dependent on a single variable. He handles it in view of a multitude of factors. "Will the person become condemned because of the healing (persistent unhealthy lifestyle is against God's will)?" "Will there be a change of heart?" etc. and the list of what He sees is too confusing to keep track of. It is impossible for scientists to keep track of every single factor God takes into account when He decides to answer a prayer in a particular way. Only God can foresee everything that could go right or wrong in the person's life as a result of unconditional healing.

"Science requires statistical analysis because humans are notoriously bad at estimating statistics. Gamblers are convinced that they can see patterns and streaks that can be exploited. Checking the casino's accounting books, however, shows conclusively that such ideas are false. Homeopathic remedies are diluted beyond the statistical possibility of any medicine remaining in the water, yet people swear and write glowing testimonials to its efficacy. Controlled studies, however, show no more effect from homeopathic remedies than from distilled water. I hope you'll understand why, without numbers to back up your anecdotes, your situation looks the same to me."

The examples you quoted do indeed have testable and verifiable results. And so do God's answers to prayer. But the problem with His answers are that there are too many factors to put under a controlled study in order to guarantee any real result. If we are able to look into the person's history and their thoughts and personality, and take those and be able to project a view of the multiple possible turns in his life because of the healing, and the resulting possible turns from the previous turns ,etc. (run-on, I know), then it would be the most accurate and valid test.

But to be able to do so would have to place us very close to perfect precognition without burning out from keeping track of every possible reason and turn. It's why the Bible says that His ways are higher than ours. The way He can see the turn of events are far more far-reaching.

But what really intrigues me, is your reason for disbelieving the Bible. Aside from the divine being seemingly untestable, what else is keeping you from believing? The reason I ask this, is that there have been numerous accounts of miracles. Sure, what I went through can be called wishful thinking and chance, but what about things like speaking in tongues? I don't mean the nonsensical utterances from charismatics and Pentecostals.

One missionary spoke to a tribe with a translator and when the translator wasn't available, he continued his presentation. Only some of the young ones understood English, but when it came to the altar call, a few older ones were the first to make a decision for Christ. Later on, the evangelist found out that while he spoke English, the ones who couldn't understand English were hearing his message in their native language simultaneously.

"Great talking with you :D It's been interesting."

I agree!

"Ok, about the pattern of similarity, I want to ask: How have the scientists been able to observe the divergence recently?"

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I think you're asking if speciation has been observed or if it's all theoretical. In the lab, this has been done several times with fruit flies. Fruit flies are favorites in genetics experiments because they have very short life cycles and breed exceptionally well in captivity. Several papers have been published about populations of fruit flies that have been bred in the lab for so long that they are no longer genetically compatible with wild populations.

Particularly interesting wild examples are called "ring species", of which arctic terns are a well known example. The terns have a range that circles the northern end of the globe. Populations around the ring can interbreed with neighboring populations, but not with those from the opposite side. Thus, by modern rules, birds from opposite sides of the Arctic would be considered different species if they weren't connected by other interbreeding populations.

A third place that this is seen is in certain chains of African lakes. Cichlid fishes have complex color patterns and breeding behavior which change relatively rapidly. That means that once a population separates, it only takes a short time before the separate populations refuse to interbreed. The populations of several such lakes have been studied, with recent studies including genomic analysis.

"Hm, but therein lies the problem, doesn't it? What makes the scientists' assumptions of prayer wrong, is that it is possible to measure it at all."

While I don't want to put words in your mouth, it sounds like you're telling me that, while one can't detect answered prayer with a controlled study, an individual can still tell when a prayer has been answered. I find that difficult to accept for two main reasons.

First, as I've said, human beings are woefully incompetent at assigning appropriate probabilities and assigning cause. There was actually a fascinating study done in 2008 (invisible link: www.sciencemag.org/cgi/reprint/322/5898/115 If you create a login at Science, you can download the PDF for free) that demonstrates this exactly. The less people feel in control about a particular situation, the more they are likely to find causal patterns that aren't there.

The second reason that I have problems with this is that it's exactly the same justification that people use for believing in things like psychic ability, acupuncture, or dowsing. Many people are utterly convinced that these things are real, but whenever they're tested, the effects disappear. They rationalize away failures as the fault of the experimental setup (or perhaps "skeptical vibrations"). If you are going to convincingly argue that you can tell when an event is answered prayer and wouldn't have otherwise happened, you'll have to explain why you're not just counting hits and ignoring misses the same as a dowser (or explain why they both actually work despite failing when tested). As an interesting exercise, do Google searches for things like "pray to Allah" or "pray to Brahma". People believe that other gods answer their prayers. Are they wrong? Are evil spirits answering their prayers? If so, how do you discern whose prayers are actually being answered?

"Aside from the divine being seemingly untestable, what else is keeping you from believing?"

It's actually because I believe that the divine actually is testable. The generic concept of "God" isn't, simply because one can invent a god that isn't testable. Christianity is testable, though, because Christians makes testable claims about truth. Many Christians claim that the Bible is necessarily inerrant, but I have convinced myself that the Bible not only contradicts things we know about reality, it contradicts itself. I mentioned this in the last post, but try to reconcile the accounts of Peter's denial. Read the accounts of Judas' death. Not only do they differ, but Matthew gets the prophecy wrong (the prophecy as written by Matthew doesn't exist at all and the one that he was clearly thinking of is in Zechariah, not Jeremiah). Compare the Law as written in Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy. How long should slaves be kept before being freed, for example (seven years or until the next Jubilee)? Which of the three sets of Ten Commandments is actually The Ten Commandments (DT 10 is the only one called "The Ten Commandments", by the way)? On the other hand, if the Bible is not inerrant as liberal Christians accept, then upon what foundation is faith?

You mention the missionary speaking in tongues. Have you spoken to the missionary himself, or is this a "friend of a friend" story? How did he find out that his converts had heard in their native language? Having never been present at a real speaking in tongues (as described in The Acts) myself, I'm much more inclined to believe that the story has been at least embellished, if not outright fabricated during the transmission. For me, they fit into the same category as bigfoot stories. Some are hoaxes, some are people jumping to conclusions and some are people's memories adding details over time that weren't really there in the first place. I don't believe because I've never been in the presence of nor heard a verifiable report of a miracle (and I include biblical inerrancy as a potential miracle). I've never seen an existing religion that makes better claims than the others (the Qur'an is superstitious nonsense and the Book of Mormon is just crap). The details surrounding the resurrection of Jesus are sketchy enough that it's dubious at best. If I could find one solid, verifiable miracle, or even enough evidence that a miracle is the most likely explanation for anything, then I'd seriously start to consider which supernatural explanation makes the most sense. As it stands, though, none of them do.

At one time, I really wanted Christianity to be true. When I first read the Bible, I actually expected it to simply be true in an undeniable way because I had been told that it was. Whenever I found something that didn't make sense, I followed it expecting to find a reasonable explanation. Every time I traced each apologetic assertion back to its source, it turned out to be far less satisfactory than I had been led to believe. I eventually decided that no matter how much I wanted it to be true, I had to choose between honesty and faith.

Don't trust anyone's facts just because they're Christian or a scientist or whatever. People can be fooled, people can misunderstand, and people lie.

"Several papers have been published about populations of fruit flies that have been bred in the lab for so long that they are no longer genetically compatible with wild populations. . . Thus, by modern rules, birds from opposite sides of the Arctic would be considered different species if they weren't connected by other interbreeding populations. . . That means that once a population separates, it only takes a short time before the separate populations refuse to interbreed."

That sounds interesting! But from this springs more questions in mind. (1) Is that seen in animals that live longer than humans? (2) Technically, don't those flies, birds and fishes, still retain features unique to their type-structure? I mean, interbreeding may no longer be viable, but they are still fishes in terms of structure? They haven't changed (and I don't mean species) into a different unknown type of animal, right?

"While I don't want to put words in your mouth, it sounds like you're telling me that, while one can't detect answered prayer with a controlled study, an individual can still tell when a prayer has been answered."

Oh no, I'm not saying that at all. One can detect answered prayer if the controlled study involves every variable God takes into account before saying a 'yes' or 'no'. But the problem lies with the fact that it's nigh impossible unless you can predict exactly what's going to happen if it's 'yes' or if it's 'no'. Furthermore, in controlled studies that have been done, most of the time the result that they're testing is 'yes' to healing for intercessory prayer, when God may say 'no', because the assumption is that intercessory prayer answered means 'yes'. King David prayed that he might be able to build the temple to God, but God said 'no'. God doesn't always answer 'yes'. But He does answer 'yes' if He can see that it benefits us in the best way.

"People believe that other gods answer their prayers. Are they wrong? Are evil spirits answering their prayers? If so, how do you discern whose prayers are actually being answered?"

By the Word of God, they can know if it's God who answers. While it can be argued that other people have their own religious books that they deem the word of God, the real answer lies in what the main objective is. Of all the religions in the world, only the Bible seeks to reveal God's character of love and mercy without abandoning justice. The Jews have the same Old Testament, but the message they preach doesn't reveal God's love to Man anywhere near the way Christianity can. The Koran focuses more on the justice aspect of God. Christianity is the only one that has the message of sacrificial love. And because it reveals God's character of love, any answer to prayer that reflects the loving kindness of God from any angle, is definitely of God.

"I mentioned this in the last post, but try to reconcile the accounts of Peter's denial."

Sorry, but the last time you mentioned it, I don't think you specified exactly what the conflicting accounts were.

"Read the accounts of Judas' death. Not only do they differ, but Matthew gets the prophecy wrong (the prophecy as written by Matthew doesn't exist at all and the one that he was clearly thinking of is in Zechariah, not Jeremiah)..."

You list several other inconsistencies, but I'm of a mix view of divine infallibility and humanity with this. It will be quite long and hard to explain, but if you'd like the url link, Samuele Bacchiocchi explains our stand on this issue quite well.

"On the other hand, if the Bible is not inerrant as liberal Christians accept, then upon what foundation is faith?"

I'll summarize how I view the Bible. The Bible may have human mistakes in figures (Paul quotes a diff number than in Numbers of how many died from the plague), but anything and all things regarding our life, our future, and our relationship to God, is inerrant. I think I mentioned in a previous post that the Bible was not compiled by God to give answers to every single thing, but to reveal Him and who and what kind of person He is; what He stands for, what He wants with us, how we can be closer to Him. It's to reveal God as He is.

"You mention the missionary speaking in tongues. Have you spoken to the missionary himself, or is this a "friend of a friend" story? ... ..."

I think it's better if you read the man's own recount of events. It's actually his own experience, so it's first-hand.

{Surprised by the Spirit

by GILBERT CANGY

A couple of years ago, God showed up in a mysterious way while I was ministering to young people. I had been invited to be the evening devotional speaker for a regional youth congress on Ambrym, a remote island belonging to Vanuatu, an island republic in the South Pacific.

Although Ambrym is halfway between Australia and the island nation of Fiji, it is still entrenched in its traditional village life. When we arrived, we were greeted by the village chief, who offered us a giant yam, a baby chick, and beautiful coconut juice traditional welcoming gifts for visitors, as he gave us permission to enter his territory.

Soon the evening meetings began. I was surprised to find a large number of older village folk coming to the meetings. I knew most of them did not speak English, but Bislama, their traditional language. Because the young people attending the youth congress all speak English, no translation had been provided. I decided that these older folks had come to hear the music and to support the youth in attendance.

The week of meetings went well, and toward the end of the week, I invited the youth to give their hearts to the Lord. Again I was surprised-this time at the number of older people who responded to the call. Later I expressed my appreciation for the support of the older folks, in spite of the fact that they could hardly understand what was being said.

"Oh, no," the man responded. "They have understood every word. Perhaps we should have told you that after your first night's message, some of the local elders came to ask us where you had learned Bislama. They were pleased that you were preaching in their language."

I paused in humility and praise as I realized that I was seeing God working as He had during Pentecost. God knew that these older people needed to hear His message of love and salvation, just as their youth needed to hear.

Mission is not dead. In some places it is as new as it was 2,000 years ago when everyone heard God's message in their own tongue. Your mission offerings make out reach to the farthest corners of the world possible.
[GILBERT CANGY is the youth director in the South Pacific Division, headquartered in Australia.]}
(taken from InsideStory of the 4th Quarter lesson study of 2007)

"At one time, I really wanted Christianity to be true. When I first read the Bible, I actually expected it to simply be true in an undeniable way because I had been told that it was. Whenever I found something that didn't make sense, I followed it expecting to find a reasonable explanation. Every time I traced each apologetic assertion back to its source, it turned out to be far less satisfactory than I had been led to believe. I eventually decided that no matter how much I wanted it to be true, I had to choose between honesty and faith."

If you don't mind me asking, what was it that you were looking for in Christianity?

"Is that seen in animals that live longer than humans?"

Sure. Tortoises have longer lifespans than humans and the tortoises of the Galapagos Islands, for example, show significant differences, not only between the island populations and those on the South American mainland, but between the different island populations themselves. There are obviously no lab populations, since the longer something lives, the longer it takes for genomic differences to stabilize in a population. Fruit flies have generation times measured in weeks, while those of tortoises are in decades.

"Technically, don't those flies, birds and fishes, still retain features unique to their type-structure? I mean, interbreeding may no longer be viable, but they are still fishes in terms of structure? They haven't changed (and I don't mean species) into a different unknown type of animal, right?"

It depends on how you decide which traits belong to the "type-structure" and which don't. I agree that they are very similar, but then again, they've only been diverging from the ancestral population for a short time. Since species isn't good enough line for you, what is? Be careful when choosing your dividing line, though. If you're too far out, then humans and chimps might accidentally get lumped into the same "type"; too far in and the distinction between micro- and macroevolution is no longer useful as a creationist argument. Keep in mind that humans and chimps are more genetically similar than mice are to rats or than porpoises are to dolphins.

"Furthermore, in controlled studies that have been done, most of the time the result that they're testing is 'yes' to healing for intercessory prayer, when God may say 'no', because the assumption is that intercessory prayer answered means 'yes'."

I agree that I misunderstood your main point, but the effect is still the same. You still claim that people recognize answered prayer even when outcomes are statistically indistinguishable from chance. Either people can recognize that statistical analysis can't or they're seeing patterns that aren't there. I know that in other circumstances, people see patterns that don't exist, so that by far seems the most likely explanation. It seems to me that the least likely explanation is that praying causes (indirectly, of course) an effect on the real world, but one that is indistinguishable from random chance.

As far as the inerrancy discussion goes, I technically meant plenary verbal inerrancy, or that every word in the Bible must be true in some literal sense. Since one can have doctrinal inerrancy and still allow for human mistakes, then one can rightly claim that the human mistakes don't in any sense disprove the Bible. The Bible, however, no longer stands as evidence of its own inspiration. If I can find other human mistakes, then I have no reason to believe that the resurrection happened unless I have some a priori reason to believe that the Holy Spirit exists to ensure that such a doctrinal mistake wouldn't enter the Bible. I also have to wonder why you'd be a creationist if you don't have to insist on early Genesis. The creation story and the Flood have the same doctrinal message whether or not they reflect literal history.

Peter's denials are to different people in each case. In Matthew, he denies Jesus to two girls and a crowd. In Mark, it's the same girl twice and then a crowd. In Luke, it's the servant girl and two men. In John, it's the servant girl, an unnamed person and then a second servant. Only one of the three Synoptics can be literally true.

"I think it's better if you read the man's own recount of events. It's actually his own experience, so it's first-hand."

There are people that claim to be taken into UFOs. Do you think that their stories are true, also?

"If you don't mind me asking, what was it that you were looking for in Christianity?"

There are two answers depending on what you mean, so I'll answer both. What I was looking for in my life (and found) was a loving community, clear direction and a handle on which to hang reality. I liked being a Christian and found it emotionally satisfying. What I looked for and didn't find was objective truth. There was nothing upon which to hang Christianity. Furthermore, as I followed the chains of claims (like the gospel writers are eyewitnesses and they were martyred for their faith, so the resurrection must have happened), all of them hinged on statements made without any justification. Furthermore, it turned out that other Christians didn't want to investigate any of this. They not only wanted it to be true, they resisted any knowledge that would make it less certain.

I personaly do believe in the supernatural. Why? Well, I won't go through my life story, but I was raised in a community here in Mexico populated by people with this kind of interest. The things I saw while growing up were strange and to most people would seem abnormal. But the people I grew up with including myself seem to not care, as if they happened all the time (which they did).

From witchcraft, ghosts, vodoo, I have seen about it all. A hoax? Sometimes. All the time? Definetily not! Many unexplained things did happen. Even my uncle who's a scientist has accepted much of the New Age philosophy of pantheism. Ofcourse, I myself am not a pantheist though.

Does the supernatural exist? In my view there is no question that it does. Most people would be skeptical though, and I have no problem with that. I don't care whether people think we Mexicans are crazy or ignorant just because we live in a 3rd world country. I have seen spirits myself and know that they are real. And believe me, you do not want to get entangled with that kind of practice. Some of you may have been in a seance before and felt nothing. Good! I would prefer to keep it that way.

THIS IS TRULY GOD SPEAKING TO US, HUMANITY, FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS, I PRAY GOD CONTINUE TO USE THIS MINISTRY
TO EXPOSE THE WORK OF THE ENEMY FOR WHO AND WHAT HE IS , THIS HAS BRAUHGT ME TO A LEVEL WERE I WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH SIN IN ALL IT'S SUBTLE FORMS, I WILL CONTINUE TO PRAY FOR THIS MINISTRY THAT IT WOULD DO
MORE GREAT THINGS FOR GOD ALMIGHTY.

Hello All...

I just wanted to clear up any confusion there was about some of the links I posted last week:

FOR MARIANA...

"One researcher, *Richard E. Dickerson, wanted to locate the exact point at which humans branched off the family tree. He decided, after comparing lysozyme and lactalbumin, that we are the direct descendants of chickens; for, in this one respect, people are more closely related to chickens than they are to any other kind of living creature."

*** Mariana wrote: "I looked through Dickerson's work and found papers dealing with lactalbumin, but didn't find any statements like the above. In fact, the only references I found to such a conclusion were in creationist websites that, I suspect, simply copied each other without actually checking to see if it's actually true. It looks rather like the NONEXISTENT Washington Times article mentioned in a previous post. ***

Mariana, BELOW IS THE REFERENCE SOURCE of the statement the author made above:

==>> Dickerson, Richard E., and Irving Geis, "The Structure and Action of Proteins", Harper and Row, New York, 1969.

Mr. Dickerson wrote this in one of his published BOOKS and not in a scientific journal article.

Maybe the reason why YOU didn't find it is because the highwire.stanford.edu website doesn't have it. (I checked it, and it DOESN'T).

Here is the link to the book from the Library Of Congress: http://lccn.loc.gov/69011112 So, you can see the book DOES exist.

By the way, it only took me 3 MINUTES to find these sources. Are you SURE you looked???

Now, About Octopi....

" The octopus has an eye that is very similar to the one that humans have. In contrast the eyes of fish are totally different from the eyes of an octopus."

*** Mariana wrote: "Where do they get this stuff? Human and fish eyes are more like each other than either is to an octopus eye, to the point of deriving from different tissues. This means the humans and fish are more closely related, which is borne out by fossil and molecular evidence (fish and humans are both vertebrates; the octopus is a mollusk). ***

The author got that from the writings of a BIOLOGIST named Michael Land who published an article in a journal called New Scientist back in 1979. Here is the excerpt taken from his writings: "The vertebrate eye shares design features, but not evolution, with the eye of the cephalopod mollusks, such as the octopus."

==> HERE was his reference source: Land, Michael, "Nature as an Optical Engineer", New Scientist, October 4, 1979.

Again, this took me only a few minutes to find.

Mariana, I noticed that you mentioned "Beneficial Mutations" and "Molecular Phylogeny". You may want to re-consider the following information:

==> http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/sci-ev/sci_vs_ev_10b.htm

==> http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/sci-ev/sci_vs_ev_11.htm

==> http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/sci-ev/sci_vs_ev_11b.htm

==> http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/sci-ev/sci_vs_ev_24.htm

FINALLY, you may want to ask yourself WHY evolutionists choose to believe in EVOLUTION instead of CREATION.
Maybe it has NOTHING to do with SCIENTIFIC FACTS or TRUTH. Maybe it has more to do with the reasons
cited HERE: ===> http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/20hist13.htm#2

FOR ALL OF THE READERS OF THIS FORUM:

The bottom line is this... PEOPLE END UP BELIEVING WHAT THEY WANT TO BELIEVE.

It doesn't matter if it's about GOD, Satan, Creation, Evolution, Heaven, Hell, "Is There Life On Other Planets?", UFO's, Parallel Universes, "Is There Life After Death?", "Where Do We Go When We Die?", Santa Claus, or the Tooth Fairy.

Also, it really DOESN'T MATTER how much "EVIDENCE" you give someone that's CONTRARY to their belief that PROVES their belief to be FALSE.

*** If you WANT to believe in God YOU WILL, and if you DON'T want to believe in God, YOU WON'T. ***

The great thing about God is that He CREATED you with the FREEDOM OF CHOICE to BELIEVE what you want and to DO what you want.

I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN GOD The Father, GOD The Son (Jesus Christ), God The Holy Spirit, and the Holy Bible as His word.

That is MY CHOICE.

If you forget everything else,

Remember THIS ===> http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:16&version=TNIV

AND THIS ===> http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%209:26-28&version=TNIV


To those of you who CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE in God, Jesus, Satan, Creation, Heaven, Hell, etc., here's a bit of WARNING....

On Judgment Day, You Better Hope You Were RIGHT! LOL! :-)

@Mariana:
"Sure. Tortoises have longer lifespans than humans and the tortoises of the Galapagos Islands, for example, show significant differences, not only between the island populations and those on the South American mainland, but between the different island populations themselves. There are obviously no lab populations, since the longer something lives, the longer it takes for genomic differences to stabilize in a population. Fruit flies have generation times measured in weeks, while those of tortoises are in decades."

But if it can't actually be tested, why do they think that differences among the island population means evolution? Because just from what you said, it sounds like the tortoises there might have some that migrated there. That is, if all continents were connected together at first, and these creatures live that long, then way long ago (presumably) it is feasible that different species of tortoises just went there.

But since it can't be tested as readily on tortoises, let's focus more on the flies. With the flies, even though they no longer reproduce with each other, how does that mean evolution? A new species may be born, but how have they progressed on from being flies? Not going by structural differences (since, as you said, can be quite subjective), but in the genetics. Are they still having the same number of chromosomes, etc.? Super variation may make new species, but if there's no new 'added' information to progress, how then can it be extrapolated to mean some new type of animal? And when I say new type, I mean that there's progress in genetics, and there's something more.

"I agree that I misunderstood your main point, but the effect is still the same. You still claim that people recognize answered prayer even when outcomes are statistically indistinguishable from chance. Either people can recognize that statistical analysis can't or they're seeing patterns that aren't there. I know that in other circumstances, people see patterns that don't exist, so that by far seems the most likely explanation. It seems to me that the least likely explanation is that praying causes (indirectly, of course) an effect on the real world, but one that is indistinguishable from random chance."

It certainly would seem the case, but it wouldn't if you don't discount the Holy Spirit impressing that it was answered. I'll give an analogy. In danger of being politically touchy, let's say you have a terrorist group. That terrorist group hits targets that to outsiders look very sporadic and pattern-less. No one can figure out who is the perpetrator. Everyone begins to think it's impossible, because they can't see a connection. Any attempts to match each terrorist group to those targets fail because statistically it doesn't seem to fit any of the groups' agendas. But then someone close to the head honcho is a spy and he reveals to everyone that it is indeed the group he's infiltrated that is the only culprit. That is how people with answered prayers know that it was God who answered, by the Holy Spirit's voice (sometimes literally) and impression.

"As far as the inerrancy discussion goes, I technically meant plenary verbal inerrancy, or that every word in the Bible must be true in some literal sense. Since one can have doctrinal inerrancy and still allow for human mistakes, then one can rightly claim that the human mistakes don't in any sense disprove the Bible. The Bible, however, no longer stands as evidence of its own inspiration."

Going by your definition of inspiration, it would not. We Adventists don't believe in absolute inerrancy, because of the reasons quoted (number discrepancy, etc.) are indicative that God in most cases did not give the Bible writers the exact words to use. Though He did sometimes say, "Write this down," indicating that that part of the writing is directly from God. But most of the time, they just wrote what they experienced (or the accounts of others like Chronicles might have been). Adventists believe that Bible writers were God's penmen, and not the pen of the Holy Spirit.

By basing the trustworthiness and infallibility of the Bible on the accuracy of its details, there is disregard of the main function of Scripture; that is, to reveal God's plan for our salvation. The Bible is not intended to supply us with accurate geographical, historical, cultural, scientific information, but to show the world the love that God has for us and the lengths He would go to in order to ensure that if possible, every single person would be saved from the death grip of sin.

"If I can find other human mistakes, then I have no reason to believe that the resurrection happened unless I have some a priori reason to believe that the Holy Spirit exists to ensure that such a doctrinal mistake wouldn't enter the Bible."

And that is why the whole Bible needs to be read first to get a clear picture of what God is like. You definitely won't be convinced God would send the Holy Spirit to prevent doctrinal mistakes (and by that I don't mean geological facts, etc.) if you aren't convinced of the unimaginable depth of His love for us, who desperately wants us to know exactly how much he longs to put our feet away from sin.

"I also have to wonder why you'd be a creationist if you don't have to insist on early Genesis. The creation story and the Flood have the same doctrinal message whether or not they reflect literal history."

But I do insist. However, it would be like a priori for you if you have not been fully convinced of the divine nature of Scripture. Which is why I'm avoiding pressing it. One thing at a time. I do protest strongly against attempts of squeezing the creation story in the faces of evolutionists, because that is like feeding honey to a baby; they'll just reject it outright because there's no previous conviction that the Word of God is of a divine nature.

"Peter's denials are to different people in each case. In Matthew, he denies Jesus to two girls and a crowd. In Mark, it's the same girl twice and then a crowd. In Luke, it's the servant girl and two men. In John, it's the servant girl, an unnamed person and then a second servant. Only one of the three Synoptics can be literally true."

Actually, not necessarily. The way I see it, it's an issue of witnesses. But I'm more inclined to believe that with the denial thing, John is more accurate. The reason being, none of the disciples were present at the hearing except Peter and John. The others would be accurate in re-telling what happened if they were actually there. Since most of the 12 were around during any major event (aside from the Transfiguration), the recount of what happened is accurate. Like the crucifixion and resurrection.

"There are people that claim to be taken into UFOs. Do you think that their stories are true, also?"

That is a disproportionate comparison. Those claims of alien abduction, the way they describe it, they were in a semi-conscious state. I have had dreams (ordinary ones) that actually felt almost tangible and vivid. One time I dreamt that I was floating from my bed and when I opened my eyes I thought I saw my the ceiling only inches away and felt myself spinning down back to my bed and I felt a thump. Do I think that actually happened? Maybe.

But with the man's testimony, it happened with a group of people who could not understand him if they heard English. The cynicism you have is only there because you haven't been there to experience it, right? Then join our missionaries. Go and see what happens in the field. Don't wait for it to happen where you are, go to places where God is working wonders at lowering barriers and working miracles.

"What I looked for and didn't find was objective truth."

What do you mean by objective truth?

"Furthermore, as I followed the chains of claims (like the gospel writers are eyewitnesses and they were martyred for their faith, so the resurrection must have happened), all of them hinged on statements made without any justification."

What statements did you come across?

"Furthermore, it turned out that other Christians didn't want to investigate any of this. They not only wanted it to be true, they resisted any knowledge that would make it less certain."

Haha :D the Adventist church has had these people as well. While they are still considered dear members, the ones of us who follow because we have understood some of the truth and want to know more, we do our best not to be those who resist anything that could shake us. Well, I can't speak for everyone. But for me, I try not to resist those. I try to see if there is really any validity to those claims.

Tell me, how many others in this comment board have discoursed with you this long without spouting out a "you have rejected the Holy Spirit and now you have to face the terrors of the Judgment without the saving blood of Jesus" (exaggeration ... I hope)?

DAVE -

"By the way, it only took me 3 MINUTES to find these sources. Are you SURE you looked???"

Why, yes. I have access to his research papers, but not the book (Highwire only indexes research papers, by the way). Even so, I'm confident that Dr. Dickerson didn't come to the conclusion that humans are the direct descendants of chickens for three reasons. First, if he had actually drawn such a bombshell of a conclusion, it would have been published in one of his papers before he published it in a book. That's why research papers are called the "primary literature".

The second reason is that I actually read through some of the papers. What Dickerson found is that one of the lactalbumin proteins in mammals' milk (all mammals, not just humans) has an evolutionary derivation from lysozyme C, which was first identified in chicken eggs. The statement made at the website you link includes some of those same words, but is so garbled from the original research that it's just nonsense.

The third reason is that, just to rub it in, I looked up the structures of lysozyme C for humans, gorillas and chickens. If the statement at your crazy website is true, then the human should be more similar to the chicken protein than to a gorilla (gorillas being included in "any other kind of living creature"). Since the blog software doesn't like really long lines and the proteins have 148 amino acids, I broke the protein up into three sections. The first row in each section is human, the second is gorilla and the third is chicken.

mkalivlglv llsvtvqgkv fercelartl krlgmdgyrg islanwmcla kwesgyntra
mkalivlglv llsvmvqgkv fercelartl krlgmdgyrg islanwmcla kwesgyntra
mrsllilvlc flplaalgkv fgrcelaaam krhgldnyrg yslgnwvcaa kfesnfntqa

tnynagdrst dygifqinsr ywcndgktpg avnachlscs allqdniada vacakrvvrd
tnynagdrst dygifqinsr ywcndgktpg avnachlscs allqdniada vacakrvvrd
tnrntdgstd ygilqinsrw wcndgrtpgs rnlcnipcsa llssditasv ncakkivsdg

pqgirawvaw rnrcqnrdvr qyvqgcgv
pqgirawvaw rnrcqnrdvr qyvqgcgv
ngmnawvawr nrckgtdvqa wirgcrl

Hmm. The human and gorilla proteins are much more similar than either one is to a chicken, wouldn't you agree? In fact, it looks like the human and gorilla differ by only one amino acid (a "t" to an "m" in the third group of the first section). So even in the alternate universe where Dickerson did make that statement, it's wrong.

"The author got that from the writings of a BIOLOGIST named Michael Land who published an article in a journal called New Scientist back in 1979. Here is the excerpt taken from his writings: "The vertebrate eye shares design features, but not evolution, with the eye of the cephalopod mollusks, such as the octopus.""

Michael Land's statement is true; the vertebrate eye does share design features with cephalopod eyes. The statement at the website, however, said that human eyes were more similar to octopus eyes than to fish eyes. That statement is false. Fish are vertebrates along with humans. That means that fish and humans are lumped together in the same group that share similar features with an octopus.

"Also, it really DOESN'T MATTER how much "EVIDENCE" you give someone that's CONTRARY to their belief that PROVES their belief to be FALSE."

Scientists are willing to change their minds as new evidence comes along. It has to actually be evidence, though, and can't just be made up. Also, you might want to check your CAPS LOCK key. I think it's wonky.

You know, I was going to respond to Matthew in this same comment, but I'll give him his own.

"But if it can't actually be tested, why do they think that differences among the island population means evolution?"

Because the same genetic patterns occur in creatures that reproduce fast enough for us to observe the evolution. Remember that you asked specifically about animals with longer lifespans than humans. The thing about the Galapagos Islands is that they're close enough to South America for animals to make the journey from the mainland (riding storm-tossed trees or somesuch) to establish island populations, but far enough that it happens only rarely. That guarantees that there is little or no mixing between the populations allowing the small island populations to diversify (Google "founder effect"). One could argue that they were separate species when they started, but then exactly the same species pattern would have to have occurred with other animals as well (Galapagos iguanas and cormorants come to mind). Creationists can certainly come with explanations for these coincidences, particularly when they're willing to pile on the miracles. The strength of evolution, however, is that it explains all of these facts and requires only natural explanations that can be observed happening now.

"Super variation may make new species, but if there's no new 'added' information to progress..."

There is new information. Despite it being a creationist mantra, "no new information" simply isn't true. Not only has it been observed ( http://nar.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/26/20/4652 , http://nar.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/26/20/4657 ), but a paper was published in 2000 specifically to address the mathematical claims made by the Intelligent Design crowd ( http://nar.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/28/14/2794 ).

"how then can it be extrapolated to mean some new type of animal?"

The answer is actually that there is no bright line between types. I was serious when I challenged you to pick a criterion to separate types. An interesting specific case is the fossil record of hominids. It's clear that the austrolopithecines (like "Lucy") are more ape than human and that Neanderthal were human and the creationist line is that the fossils in between are either ape or human and there is no "in between". What's telling, though, is that different creationists draw the line in different places (there is an interesting comparison at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/compare.html ). I used species myself because species are defined by populations that don't interbreed and that's one of the only objective criteria that can be applied. You mentioned chromosome number as well, but chromosome number doesn't even make for a solid line the way you'd like it to. Horses and donkeys, for example, have different numbers of chromosomes and the offspring are nearly always sterile (hence calling them different species), but occasional fertile offspring have been documented. Additionally, human chromosome 2 was formed by the fusion of two chromosomes that are separate in other apes. We know this because chromosome 2 actually has two centromeres (one of which has become inactivated) and a strange length of telomeres, normally found at the ends of chromosomes, in the middle where the two chromosomes joined together.

"That is how people with answered prayers know that it was God who answered, by the Holy Spirit's voice (sometimes literally) and impression."

I can't get in your head, so I can't know for certain the details of the experience that you're having, but there are two observations that I can make. First, if I were to have an experience that I could only attribute to a supernatural entity (or that went so far as to identify itself as the Holy Spirit), then I would certainly lend more credence to other religious claims. The second observation is that I have had experiences that seem similar and am convinced that they originated with me. Without belaboring the point, there are feelings that I once attributed to the Holy Spirit. I've since realized that I can cause them on demand by putting myself into the same frame of mind that I used to have when I prayed and studied the Bible.

As to most of the inerrancy discussion, my response is pretty boring because I agree with you. I have no theological problem with doctrinal inerrancy. My reason for bringing it up is that most Christians that argue with me believe that the Bible has no mistakes and that itself is evidence of its divine origin. I incorrectly assumed that you would as well.

"That is a disproportionate comparison. Those claims of alien abduction, the way they describe it, they were in a semi-conscious state."

Perhaps. My main point is that these stories tend to grow in the telling. Many UFO abductees claim to have been semi-conscious, but some do not (a fascinating book, by the way, is _Abducted_ by Susan A. Clancy, detailing clinical aspects of belief in UFO abduction). Many of the stories change in subtle (and sometimes less subtle) ways, particularly when being recounted for a group of "believers". An analogy can be made to Gilbert Clangy as a missionary recounting his experiences to a church audience hungering to know that their support is making a tangible difference. I won't impart motives or even say that he, himself doesn't believe that these events happened. I simply think that there are enough different ways for the story to have become what it is without an actual miracle occurring. On a more prosaic level, anecdotal evidence is considered to be inherently untrustworthy among clinicians for these very reasons.

"What do you mean by objective truth?"

Anything that can both be verified and has some sort of attachment to the real, physical world. "Jesus was raised in body from the dead" is an objective statement that either happened or it didn't. So, too, is "Noah floated in an ark over a global flood". These statements are verifiable in principle. I mean that any objective statements of supernatural events in the Bible are either unverifiable in practice (like Jesus' resurrection) or can objectively be shown to be false (like The Flood).

"What statements did you come across?"

The gospel writers were eyewitnesses.
The gospel writers (with the exception of John) were martyred.
John was boiled in oil and survived.
The gospel writers were, in fact, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
There is credible, extra-biblical evidence of Jesus' ministry.

"Tell me, how many others in this comment board have discoursed with you this long without spouting out a "you have rejected the Holy Spirit and now you have to face the terrors of the Judgment without the saving blood of Jesus""

Not many. Not many in person, either. The conversations usually end with cognitive dissonance over how I can be nice, but an atheist. It has actually gone the other way and I've been told that I'm really a Christian, but don't realize it (mostly from the irrevocable salvation crowd).

"(exaggeration ... I hope)"

It is for the ones that will talk to me. Most of the hellfire is directed by Christians that won't talk to me toward Christians that will.

"I don't care whether people think we Mexicans are crazy or ignorant just because we live in a 3rd world country."

Anyone that pigeonholes an entire nationality with such a broad generalization (and non-sequitur to boot) doesn't have thoughts worth worrying about. On that, at least, we agree.

There exists a supernatural or a plane of existence hidden form our eyes. On such a plane exists Angels and Demons and GOD. Angels are God's faithful messengers. Demons are felonious former angels. All phenomenon such as "witchcraft, ghosts, voodoo", aliens, etc are simply felonious fallen angles seeking a cheap thrill in frightening humans with the overall goal of misleading them into death if at all possible. Demons are jealous of the fact that humans have the opportunity to attain what was once theirs -- that is communion and eternal happiness with JESUS. Earlier I stated that if one wanted proof of the supernatural then they should tempt the felonious fallen angels by taking part in their rituals. They long for our destruction and would gladly make their presence known if doing so would speed a human beings demise. Many persons once on such paths when they found CHRIST and confronted the spirits, aliens, etc with JESUS found that those same entities rapidly ceased and desisted. If those spirits, aliens, and ghosts fear CHRIST then GOD must be real. I find it sad that the layers of imaginative fluff that have been created for our misdirection by the felonious fallen angels finds deep roots in the hearts and minds of my fellow brothers and sisters toiling away in this sin sick world. Demons and Satan set traps like quicksand to trap and ensnare us all. The escape from the traps is JESUS and HIS TRUTH. It may seem foolish to the unbeliever; the skeptic; the evolutionist, however logic be confounded, it is TRUE. Ecclesiastes 12:12-13 "And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." The smartest person that ever lived stated that there is always more to learn. Our focus should be instead on Trusting GOD. That is where you find happiness, satisfaction, and peace.

I was not born Seventh-Day Adventist. I am familiar with evolution. I sympathize with the plight that the pursuit of knowledge edifies the mind and sanctifies the seeker. Its great to know that one of GOD's creatures like the giant tortoise lives a long life, however that information does not save. It in of itself does not bring us closer to CHRIST, nor does it assure one's salvation. This is why some Christians might be indifferent to philosophies other than Christianity or knowledge outside of the realms of the CHURCH.

The pursuit of knowledge of CHRIST does save. Learning more about JESUS ensures eternal life. Study of the Bible guided by the HOLY SPIRIT brings peace. Its simple, but it always works.

Brother tdk, I know what you mean. Ofcourse I had to learn it the hard way.

Some friends of mine saw the new movie "Paranormal Activity" not to long ago. When they described to me the movie it brought back memories. Because the things they said happened in the movie were just like what happened in the community I lived in when I was young. I guess the enemy works differently in different regions and cultures. Skepticism and atheism in western countries while using fear of the supernatural and unknown in poor helpless regions like Africa.

That is so true but God is all knowing we must all seek God for are selves so we can be beacons of light to shine for others GOD BLESS YOU ALL

AND FOREMOST I JUST WANT TO GIVE GLORY AND HONOR TO OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, AND SECONDLY TO THE AMAZING FACTS TEAM FOR GLORIFYING OUR LORD AND SAVIOR TROUGH THIS DVD. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK YOUR LABOR IS NOT IN VAIN. THE devil IS JUST MAD BECAUSE CHRIST IS THE CENTRAL MESSAGE IN THIS PROJECT. IN MY OPINION A CROWN OF LIFE IS BETTER THAN AN OSCAR AWARD OR BEST MOTION PICTURE AWARD. GOD BLESS.

My friend just sent me this link a few minutes ago and what is so amazing is that I am at this very moment writing my first screenplay on the first chapter of Patriots and Prophets (PP) chapter 1 "Why was sin permitted".I hope to be finished in July when my online course ends that I am taking with the New York Film Academy (NYFA). I just called my local ABC here in Bermuda, and soon I will be able to get the DVD. Though I am studying Early Writings and 3 chapters of PP...chapter 1, 35, and 72, I would be interested to see what you guys have done with this story, as I am just starting the Inciting Incident (The beginning of the fall of Lucifer) and need to get a clearer understanding of the subject of what led Lucifer start to distrust Michael and the Father in the first place. I understand that pride of his beauty was a factor and the mystery of iniquity can not be explained, but I need to get the best input I can so that the story is plausible. I have not read all 172 posts, but it seems that TDK is affiliated with this ministry and if he or someone can assist me in my quest for knowledge in this particular subject it would be greatly appreciated. My email address is ntheresa@northrock.bm. Thanks in advance Amazing Facts.

Dear Mariana,
I don't know much about anything about all this evolution theries and DNA Genes and things like that ,i have not study in medical school, but i will testify to you about my experience and i would like for you to show me some tangible evidence to my story: When i was 4yrs and 1/2 in the country of LAOS, I had a neighbor who's son died at the age of 6months. one day the mother of that child and her small daughter probably about my age asked if i wanted to go w/them to visit their brother in the cemetary where they buried him, and i replied ok as i didn't know any better and when we got there the little girl and i was playing as the mother goes to bewailed her dead son, now as we were playing, the gardner planted beautiful cucumbers and corns and pumpkins around the cemetary, and i thought wow these cucumbers look so good so i decided to reach my hand down and to pick one of the cucumbers, however as i reached down to pick the cucumber all of a sudden in the middle of the hill there was a piece of plastic not very big propably just enough to cover a twin size bed; and this plastic stood up and turned toward me and my friend and stared at us straight in our face and then of course we started yelling and the girls mother came running and said what are you two yelling about ; so we pointed our fingers toward this thing and the mother said:(oh sh) and she grab hold of our hands and we started running down the hill and i turned back to look, i saw this thing standing straight up w/nothing holding it nor were there any hands or human forms touching it for it stood staight all by itself and this was on a normal day w/no wind whatsoever. I also notice from all the debate you had w/my brothers and sisters on this site that you said that Jesus died and stayed buried and that there is no such thing as spirits or ghosts, i will be honest w/you that before i did not know GOD OR JESUS however i know what i saw and that my own two eyes bear witness what i have seen a demonic spirit trying to scare us and to decieve us to think and believe in life after death however, i like for you to explain to me how in the world, if there were no spirits or demons or ghost then how do you answer some of these things that are happening to people like myself and others who have witnessed these thing, now remember that i was only 4 yrs and 1/2 and was too small to even believe that these things exist? please provide some strong tangible evidence to me and i will await for your response to this question, and please do provide tangible evidence, i don't want to hear about he say or she say or who say i would like some TANGIBLE EVIDENCE and i will wait patiently for your response, thank you and have a wonderful sabbath GOD BLESS and hope to hear from you soon, thankyou. KIM.

God is showing and calling everyone to make a decision for Him (note, I didn't say 'forecing') because His salvation is FREE. Ultimatly it's our choice before the end. May you choose eternal life...........I DID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and the enemy is not happy.....

I need your prayer Pastor Doug
I have a court apperance by August.
I know this is God's way of bringing me back to the fold.
I also know that God is a God of second chance.
and to the rest of you people please, please pray for me too
and may i be blessed by your prayers so God can use me again (just like the old times) to be a witness to my family, friends, and co-workers.
May God Bless this ministry and this project.

Should we not be careful how we may err in trying to tell the world the Lord Has His ways in which He Has shown us that we should work we should be careful lest we forget that in this work God woul have mercy not sacrifice DA "Come rest awhile" and also know that a depiction of truth in simplicity with the telling power of thye holy Ghost can have an effect beyond our finite comprehension and also though all seculation as long as within the confines of God 's word is ok pp we are supposed to know our limits otherwise even the world makes a mockery of these Solemn truths we are to present the cause of God should never be misrepresented whereas we should always seek the most intelligent way to present truth those who see areason tolaugh at the theme of this though sometimes because of our lack of faith( the disciples below the mount while Christ was transfigured whrere mocked of the devil), but at the same time these people show their foolishness and their ignorance to reaklity which makes them stoop so low as to act like Children rather than adults.The theme is important but let us consecrate ourselves more

WOW, just for so many reasons WOW. I just wanted to first say PRAISE HIS NAME!! My lil bro who had lost faith due to his schitzophrenia (I think that's how ya spell it), actually sat down and watched the Cosmic Conflict dvd with me. Afterwards he didn't make any snarky comments and let me and my family enjoy the Sabbath without starting an arguement to drown out the voices he hears. He's became immune to all the meds cause he's been takeing them for so many years, and now claims he worships Satan by dressing gothic and putting 666 on all his stuff, but it's times like these when he doesn't act like a butt and plays with his niece and nef that I know just how much God is in control and will bring him back into the fold.

On another note I have been reading the posts and have enjoied reading the nonhostile back and forths. Some of the posts before them I have had issues with, mainly the female who joked that her pastor was asking her to have sex with him and used bible referances. After being raped by my uncle who ministered to incarcerated males after claiming to have turned his life around with the bible, I find nothing funny about people men and women who are looked up to as pillars in a community, Christian or otherwise, abusing their station.

Besides that I also wanted to comment on the God vs No God topic goin on that's entertained me more this night than almost anything I've ever looked forward to in my life. It's up there with the anticipation I felt with the birth of my first daughter and now soon to be my second lil girl. WOW, it may be jus the sleep deprivation mixin with my wacked hormones, but I'm serious. Has anyone heard that some scientists found some hugh hunks of green glass in Egypt and by usein science figured out that they were made by meteors from space that burned up before they hit earth makeing pillars of fire that somehow burned for along time. I'm more willing to believe the account from the Bible that says God sent the pillar of fire cause it's hard for me to believe that fire can continue burning without some source of fuel. Anyway Faith is seeing with Gods eyes and not our own, and with Gods eyes I pray Mariana will see that God gave us all the answers of what is to come when he gave his word which not only is the Bible but also his Son to us so that with the tools we will truely draw closer to him. But we can't forget there are a bunch of worries that come up when you read the Bible. One is that Satan was there the whole time the Bible was being written and pput together so he knows what it says and how best to use it's text it to confuse us to Gods true meanings. Two there are so many versions of the Bible it's hard to know which has the closest translation to the first Bible ever. That's why Christ said not to put your trust in Man cause they will always disappoint you. Only Christ was sinless that's why he's our example and able to die for our sins. I read the closest english translations of pieces from the Dead Sea Scrolls and I felt more power touch me from the words than I ever had with just reading my Bible. But then again I real the Clear Word a paraphrased version of the Bible along with a Bible commentary when I do my studies cause I would get annoyed when I only used a KJV or a NKJV Bible. Well I'm finally gettin tired, so I will end with this. God does want us to always ask questions and also to ask for understanding to know what's the truth when we hear it so we aren't tricked by our own supposed intelligence. Be Blessed n Gnight. (I'm sorry if extra words or letters popped up in places while I wrote this, I'm too tired to proof read all that I typed, I just hope I made sense.)

Mariana, what if you're wrong? Okay, I declare that you win this wordy human competition but I also declare that you've never had the satisfaction of being victorious in anything. It doesn't matter how many books you've read or how many degrees are hanging on your wall (I'm guessing zero) you seem pretty silly if your only goal is to feel superior to humans that are lesser "evolved" than yourself. If God doesn't exist, just who's approval (of your superiority) is it that you're looking for? You're phoniness doesn't hide your sadness and your pride wreaks of death. Don't bother responding about how ignorant I am. Human adoration doesn't interest me.

Gooood!!!!!!! Veryy very goooooddd!!
Please, y've parents in south américa. Traslate this material to spanish and oter lenguage. Y'm go to sleep.

It is quite difficult to make sense out of any of the comments. The grammatical errors are ubiquitous and the comments are choppy at best. Is it an insurmountable feat to write good and grammatically correct sentences? If any of you desire to communicate something across any medium, a proper delivery is an exigent matter. I apologize if this message has offended anyone.
For my opinion on the movie, I appreciate the attempt to evince certain doctrines that help to explain the origin of sin but I believe this film did a subpar job in doing so. The light and effects were distracting and it seemed like the filmmakers were more concerned with creating an appealing movie. A formidable alternative would've been to not create the film and to provide a lucid description on the origin of sin, excluding all types of ecumenical light shows. The truth should be sufficient.

Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life no one is coming to the Father but by him. So why do men believe in evolution. That will no give us eternal life neither the Pope or Mary or any of the saints. We need Him -- who said-John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. So seek for Him and worship him Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. He is indeed-- John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

To Mariana:
I am not mathematician, no argument there. However i am just a science teacher of 14 years at the high school level in my country. I have studied microbiology,genetics,chemistry, vertebrate and invertebrate zoology and botany as fufillment of my graduation requirements for my degree in Biology. So i do have a competent science background. I also teach Human Biology, Integrated Science, Social Studies, and Chemistry for your information. I happen to be a Christian science teacher who scoffs at the concept of evolution as the bases for the deliberate denial of a supreme being, God, creator, Allah, Yaweh, Budda,Selassie,Krishna, or whatever other name you wish to call him. I was reading the debate between yourself and Matthew and was impressed by your level of intellect and cognitive logic and reasoning. However, i have to deduce that your reasoning is flawed and you deliberately choose not to believe in the reality of God,divinity of Jesus and power of christianity. I am amazed at your level of denial and the manner in which you attempt to pick apart Matthew's reasoning. Fortunately for Matthew, he seems to be up to the challenge of taking you on and is not intimidated by your scientific intellectualism, jargon and rhetoric, and so am i. I have studied Darwinsim, and the priciples of macroevolution in vertebrate Zoolgy , and my lecturer was a German/american fullbright scholar named Dr. Phil Zinsmeister who was sent to teach at our local university in my country when i was studying. Why am i mentioning all of this?, well simply because i could have decided to develop one- track mind thinking like you display on this website and believed that we all descended from apes and that we are at the mercy of mutations, survival of the fittest, or that our planet was seeded by alien ancestors take your pick. Point is that there are numerous theories to believe in, but YOU decide which one is most believable and workable for you. Human beings have the tendency to be brainwashed by any and every theory some super genius researcher proposes. The fact is you can question, debate and argue for or against any theory. We all have intellect and cognitive abilities, but the power to choose supercedes them all. We believe what we choose and we choose what we believe, it is as simple as that. Do all people believe in bigfoot, the lochness monster, the abominable snowman, alien abductions, God or demons? The answer obviously is NO. However to those people who CHOOSE to believe in them, that is their reality. I think you CHOOSE to deny God and would argue until every last neuron in your 49 ounce brain stopped firing. This is sad, i am flabbergasted that someone of your intellectual stature cant see that the bilogical intricacies and complexities of an animal cell or virus depicts advanced biological engineering or designing that is just too baffling scientifically speaking to simply evolve out out chance. While i know that genetically we are just adenine, guanine, cytosine, thymine or uracil why don't you see the creative design or divine genius in those codes of life that determine the biological nature of the human organism. Why do you insist on believing that everything just simply evolved and came about as a result of pure coincidence or chance. I have a big problem with this type of logic or reasoning. Did the chair you are sitting on around toy computer evolve by chance or did someone design and build it ? please be honest with yourself. Which came first the chicken or the egg ? Are you really going to tell me that you don't believe in a supreme being or entity ? Did your parents get in a bed and make you or did you come down from a tree? Come on now, you are in extreme denial , your mind has become absorbed in all those theories that you read in those scientific papers and journals. By beholding we become changed. You seem to have been a believer who has a lot of issues, namely, doubt, skepticism, denial and distrust but who has lost their way along life's journey. Find yourself, just let it all go and stop fighting against god,or you will find yourself leading a miserable existence. Millions of people on this planet believe in God and have done so for centuries. What are the odds that all of them are wrong and you and the other atheists are right? Guess we will have to find out. Until then pray that your belief in evolution and denial of God is right for the sake of your eternal destiny.

Mariana how many degrees in biology and the other sciences herein discussed do you have?

PLEASE Amazingfacts update this website.

Reveal something on the second disk.

I think that everybody who tries to get through to Mariana would realize by now that convincing her that God exists and that this universe was created is like sitting in a rocking chair going back and forth but actually getting nowhere. While her explanations are highly advanced scientifically speaking, and based on pure logic and biological concepts, she forgets to apply one simple concept. FAITH.
It is the substance of things hoped for ,the evidence of things not seen. I DO have a strong scientific background, while i am no mathematician, I studied Zoology, Chemistry,Botany,Microbiology and Genetics to earn my degree in Biology in my country. So i am not scientifically ignorant. While genetically speaking we are all just adenine,guanine,Cytosine Thymine and uracil at the cellular/molecular level, this has not convinced me that we simply evolved out of chance. I believe in the principles of design, order and organization not just mutations, gene splicing and replications. DO you really think that we are simply products of mutating and replicating genetic material. If so where did the genetic material come from? Who or what made the pioneering or precursor genetic material if you wish? Don't you think it might have been created or engineered? Give it some thought sister. I implore you to look at the anatomy of the DNA molecule as described/discovered by Watson and Crick. In my humble scientific opinion it spells intelligent engineering/design not random evolution. You figure out the math. Again ask i you what are the odds of DNA evolving from the cosmic debris and matter left over from the big bang if there was ever one? Or do you believe in our planet being seeded by alien DNA that somehow evolved into life on earth as we know it ? The truth is there are a million theories to believe in,just pick your poison,because thats what a lot of them are MENTAL AND SPIRITUAL POISON for those who are faithless and stubborn. People choose what they believe and believe what they choose. If i want to believe that Saturn has no rings because they evaporated 1 million years ago then nobody on the planet can convince me otherwise if i don't want them to. You would be what i call a terrible gambler. You would go against the remaining 5 billion people on the planet that believe in some creator,God, supernatural being or deity. Got to give it to you that's real courage sister. As for me i will just be another moron who just happens to believe in God according to you atheists. I'll go with the 5 billion majority as opposed to a couple million atheists that are out there. What if you are wrong ? What then? Think about it

Our minds seems to have been fevered and benumed by Hollywood,that we're allowing this timely Message to elude us. GOD, have mercy on us.